This time on This Month in the Apocalypse, Brooke, Margaret, and Inmn talk about everything that happened in August, from the apocalyptic weather, to the wild fires in Lahaina, to some recent and incredibly tragic queerphobic violence. But also there’s some hope.
This week on Live Like the World is Dying, Inmn is joined by author and activist, Michael Novick. They talk about just how horrible fascism really is. Thankfully, there’s a simple solution, antifascism. Michael talks about their work with Anti-Racist Action Network, the Turning The Tide newspaper, and his newest book with Oso Blanco, The Blue Agave Revolution.
Michael (he/they) and The Blue Agave Revolution can be found at www.antiracist.org
If you want to take over the Turning The Tide newspaper, find Michael at antiracistaction_ la@yahoo.com
Live Like the World is Dying: Michael Novick on Antifascism
Inmn 00:15
Hello, and welcome to Live Like the World is Dying, your podcast for what feels like the end times. I’m your host Inmn Neruin and I use they/them pronouns. This week we are talking about something that is very scary and, in terms of things we think about being prepared for, something that is far more likely to impact our lives than say, a zombie apocalypse. Or I mean, we’re already being impacted by this. It is actively killing us. But, if I had to choose between preparing for this and preparing for living in a bunker for 10 years, I would choose this. Oh, golly, I really hope preparing for this doesn’t involve living in a bunker for 10 years, though. But the monster of this week is fascism. However, there’s a really great solution to fascism…antifascism. And we have a guest today who has spent a lot of their life thinking about and participating in antifascism. But first, we are a proud member of the Channel Zero Network of anarchist podcasts. And so here’s a jingle from another show on that network. Doo doo doo doo doo. [Singing the words like a cheesy melody]
Inmn 02:00
And we’re back. And I have with me today writer and organizer Michael Novick, co founder of the John Brown Anti Klan Committee, People Against Racist Terror, Anti-racist Action Network, the TORCH Antifa network and White People For Black Lives. Michael, would you like to introduce yourself with your name, pronouns and kind of…I guess like your history in anti-racist, antifascist struggles and a little bit about what you want to tell us about today?
Michael 02:34
Sure. Thanks, Inmn. So yeah, Michael Novick. Pronouns he or they. I’ve been doing anti-racist and antifascist organizing and educating and work for many many decades at this point. I’m in my 70s. I got involved in political activism in kind of anti-war, civil rights, student rights work in the 60s. I was an SDS at Brooklyn College. And I’ve been doing that work from an anti white supremacist, anticapitalist, anti-imperialist perspective. And I think that particularly trying to understand fascism in the US context, you have to look at questions of settler colonialism. And, you know, people sometimes use the term racial capitalism. I think that land theft, genocide, enslavement of people of African descent, especially is central to understanding the social formation of this country. I was struck by the name of the podcast in terms of "live like the world is ending," because for a long time, I had an analysis that said that the fear of the end of the world had to do with the projection of the bourgeoisie. The bourgeoisie feels that its rule is coming to an end and therefore thinks the world is coming to an end, but the world will get on fire without the bourgeoisie and the rulers and the imperialists. Except that because of the lease on life that this empire has gotten repeatedly by the setbacks caused by white and male supremacy and the way it undermines people’s movements, the bourgeoisie is actually in a position to bring the world to an end. I think that’s what we’re facing is a global crisis of the Earth’s system based on imperialism, based on settler colonialism, and exploitation of the Earth itself. And so I think it’s not just preparing for individual survival in those circumstances. We have to think about really how we can put an end to a system that’s destroying the basis for life on the planet. And so I think that those are critical understandings. And the turn towards fascism that we’re seeing across the…you know, Anti-Racist Action’s analysis has always been that fascism is built from above and below and that there are forces within society. I think particularly because settler colonialism is a mass base for fascism in this country, as well as an elite preference for it under the kind of circumstances that we’re looking at, in which, you know, as I said the basis for life itself has been damaged by imperialism, capitalism, and its manifestations. And so the need for extreme repressive measures, and for genocidal approaches, and exterminationist approaches are at hand. So, I think that, again, I think that the question of preparation is preparation for those kinds of circumstances. I think we’re living in a kind of low intensity civil war situation already, in which you see the use of violence by the State, obviously, but also by non state forces that people have to deal with. So I think that that’s the overall approach that I think we need to think about. And that comes out of, as I said, decades of doing work. I think that there are a few key things that we have to understand about this system, which is that it’s not just issues that we face, but there is an enemy, there is a system that is trying to propagate and sustain itself that is inimical to life and inimical to freedom. And that if we want to protect our lives and the lives of other species and if we want to protect people’s freedom going forward, we have to recognize that there’s an irreconcilable contradiction between those things and between the system that we live in. So that’s kind of a sobering perspective. But, I think it’s an important one.
Inmn 06:20
Yeah, yeah, no, it is. And it’s funny, something that you said, kind of made a gear turn in my head. So, you know, normally, yeah, we do talk about in preparing to live like the world is dying, we do usually come at it from this context of that being a bad thing that we need to prepare for bad things to happen. But, the way you were talking about like fascism and empire and stuff, I suddenly thought, "Wait, maybe we should live like that world is dying and like there is something better ahead." Because, you know, we do like to approach the show from…I feel like we like to talk about the bad things that are happening and could happen but also the hopefulness and like the brighter futures that we can imagine.
Michael 07:15
I think that’s right. And I think it’s really important to have both of those understandings. I think that, you know, people do not actually get well organized out of despair. I think they do, you know, you want to have…You know, there used to be a group called Love and Rage. And you have to have both those aspects. You have to have the rage against the machine and the rage against the system that’s destroying people, but you have to have the love, you have to have that sense of solidarity and the idea of a culture of not just resistance but a culture of liberation and a culture of solidarity. And I think that, you know, there’s a dialectic between the power of the State and the power of these oppressive forces and the power of the people and to the extent that the people can exert their power and to the extent that we can free ourselves from the, you know, the chains of mental slavery is…[Sings a sort of tune] you hear in reggae, you know, that actually weakens the power of the State and the power of the corporations. And they [the State] understand that sometimes better than we do. So there is, you know, there’s some lessons I feel like I’ve learned and one of them is that every time there is a liberatory movement based out of people’s experiences and the contradictions that are experienced in their lives, whether it’s the gay liberation movement, women’s liberation movement, or Black liberation and freedom struggle, there’s always an attempt by the rulers to take that over and to reintegrate it into, you know, bourgeois ways of thinking. And, you know, people talk about hegemony and the idea that ruling ideas are the ideas of the ruling class, and I think that, you know, I’ve seen it happen over and over again with different movements. And so, you know, I was involved with the Bay Area gay liberation in the 80s and, you know, one of the things that happened there is that you saw very quickly a different language coming up and different issues coming up. And so suddenly the question of gays in the military was put forward, or we have to be concerned about the fact that gay people have to hide when they’re in the military, and the question of normalizing gay relationships in the contract form of marriage came forward. And those were basically efforts to circumscribe and contain the struggle for gay liberation and to break down gender binaries and stuff within the confines of bourgeois conceptions of rights and bourgeois integration into militarism and contractual economic relationships. And you saw that over and over again in terms of the Women’s Liberation Movement, and then all of a sudden you’ve got bourgeois feminism and white white feminism. And I think that that’s really important to understand because it means that there’s a struggle inside every movement to grasp the contradiction that…and to maintain a kind of self determined analysis and strategy for how that movement is going to carry itself forward in opposition to what the rulers of this society–who rely heavily on, as I say, white supremacy, male supremacy, settler colonialism, and its manifestations–to try to contain and suppress insurrectionary…And you see the same thing within the preparedness movement. There’s the dominant politics of the preparedness movement I think that I’ve seen over many years are actually white supremacist. They’re maintaining the homestead of settler colonial land theft. So you have to understand that that’s a contradiction in that movement that has to be faced and overcome and struggled with. I think having an understanding is critical to really trying to chart a path forward that will kind of break…create wedge issues on our side of the of the ledger, so to speak, and begin to break people away from identification with the Empire, identification with whiteness, identification with privilege. And, you know, one of the issues I’ve had over a long time, for example, what I struggle for is people’s understanding about the question of privilege. You know, I come out of the…as I said, there were struggles in the 60s and early 70s about what we called white skin privilege. And I think that it’s critical to understand that privilege functions throughout the system all the time. It’s not a burden of guilt, it’s a mechanism of social control. And anything you have as privilege can be taken away. Privilege is a mechanism of actually obtaining consent and adherence to…You know, parents use privileges with their kids to try to get their kids to do what they want. Teachers use privilege with students to get the students to do what they want, Prison guards use privileges with prisoners to get the prisoners to follow the rules and stay incarcerated. And so, you know, that’s a mechanism of Imperial domination, of settler colonialism, and certainly within that context. So, it’s not an illness or a…It’s not something to be guilty about. It’s something to contend with and deal with and understand that if there are things you have as privileges that you think are used by right or by merit, you’re deluding yourself and you can’t actually function facing reality. So when you understand that they are privileges, you understand that they’re there to obtain your consent and your adherence, and your compliance, your complicity, your complacency, and then you have to actually resist those privileges or turn those privileges into weapons that you can use to actually weaken the powers that be. And I think that that approach is important to understand that, you know…I used to do a lot of work with people in the Philippines struggle, and they talked about the fact that, you know, on some of the…outside the US Army bases that were imposed in the Philippines, there was a rank order of privilege, like where people could dig in the garbage dumps of the US military to get better quality stuff that was being thrown out by the military. And so that kind of hierarchy and sense of organizing people by by hierarchy, by privilege, is how the system functions at every level. In the workplace they find different privileges that people have to try to divide workers from each other and get people to struggle for privilege as opposed to actually struggle for solidarity and resistance and a different world. And I think that having that understanding begins to free people. Steven Biko was the leader of the Black Consciousness Movement in South Africa that really helped propel it moving forward. One of the things he said is that, "The greatest weapon in the hands of the oppressor is the minds of the oppressed." And, you know, I think to the extent that we can start to free our minds of these structures, we can actually begin to weaken the oppressor and strengthen the struggling and creative powers and energies of people to really build a different world.
Inmn 14:00
Yeah, yeah. Sorry, this is gonna seem like a silly question because it feels very basic. But, I love to kind of break things down into their base levels. But, what is fascism?
Michael 14:11
Yeah, good question. I think that an important analysis of fascism that I came across is from Cesare Amè. And what he said is that, "Fascism is the application in the metropole (of the colonizing power) of the methods of rule that have been used in the colonies." I think that that has a critical understanding because, as I said, the US is a separate colonial system, so elements of fascism have always been present within the political, economic, and social structure of the United States because they’re internally colonized people and stolen land. So, if you’re looking at elements of fascism, there’s hyper masculinity, there’s hyper nationalism, there’s obviously slave labor, there’s incorporation of a mass base into kind of a visceral identification with a leader. And all of those things really have manifest themselves in US history before we used the term, "fascism." And so, the US is based on land theft, on genocide, on exterminationist policies towards the indigenous people, the enslavement of African people, and also on the incorporation of a mass base based on settler colonialism and the offering of privileges to a sector of the population to say, "Okay, you know, we’re going to participate along with the rulers in this system." And so I think that it’s important to get that understanding because people often think that fascism is an aberration or it’s a particularly extreme form of dictatorial rule or something like that. But I think that it’s really a way of trying to reorganize people’s personalities around their role within an empire and within, you know, it’s trying to control the way people think, and control the way people see themselves in relation to other people. And so, you know, that’s why I think that idea that fascism is built from above and below is important because we do see fascist elements that have some contradictions with the state. And we’ve seen, for example, in January 6th. You know, the government has gone after certain of these elements because they have moved too quickly. Or, the same way that there were premature antifascists during the World War II period and they went after the people in the Abraham Lincoln Brigade. Sometimes there are sort of premature proto-fascist in this society that have contradictions with the State, and they’re operating somewhat independently. So, you know, I think that it’s important to understand that and that there are elements in the State and within the different sections of the State that have their own operative plan. So, you know, when you look at the question of police abuse and police brutality, there’s one approach to it that certain elements in the State take, which is about command and control. They want to make sure that they control the police forces and that individual officers are not acting independently but are carrying out cohesive state strategies. At the same time, there are elements within law enforcement that are trying to organize individual cops for organized white supremacy. And, it’s the same thing in the military. And so there are contradictions there that we have to be aware of, but at the same time, they’re operating within a framework of settler colonialism, of organized white supremacy, So, one of the things that’s come up recently, for example, is this idea that there…how can there be non-white white supremacists? And, you know, I think it has to do with the fact that it’s not just your identity, or your racial identity that’s there but who do you…What’s your identification? Are you identifying with the Empire? Are you identifying with the bourgeois? Are you identifying with the settler colonial project that has shaped, really, the whole globe over the course of half a millennium? Or, are you identifying with the indigenous? Are you identifying with the struggling people? And it’s less a…It’s not a question of your particular skin color but which side of the line are you on?
Inmn 18:12
How does attempts by the State or by society to kind of like assimilate various oppressed people into the Empire? Like, how does that kind of factor factor into this?
Michael 18:24
Well, if you look at the history of, let’s say, Central America is one case in point, that there were fascist forces in Central America and their base was not really within their own society. Their base was within the Empire. And so, you had death squads operating, you had mercenaries operating, you had contras [counter revolutionaries] operating in Nicaragua, Honduras, Guatemala, carrying out genocidal policies, in many cases, against indigenous people and people of African descent within their own societies. And so, you know, that’s not exactly fascism in the same way, but it certainly is aspects of police state and death squad activity that has to be resisted. So I think that, you know, when you see Enrique Tarrio and some of these people that are, quote unquote, "Hispanic," operating as proto-fascists with the Proud Boys or these other formations in the United States that’s a manifestation of the same thing, that there are people who have identified themselves with a system of white supremacy and a system of domination, a system of exploitation, and they’re trying to make their own individual piece with it and they have collective mechanisms that reinforce that. And they see…So, you know, I think that the fascism has presented itself at times as a decolonizing element in Latin America and Asia and other places where…For example, when the Japanese Empire was trying to strengthen itself and formed an alliance with Italian fascism and German Nazism, they also presented themselves in Asia as liberators of Asia from European colonialism. And, you know, then they carried out atrocities of their own in China, Indochina, and Korea. So, I think that nobody is exempt from this. It’s not a genetic factor. It is what ideology…What’s the organizing principle that people are operating under to form their society and generate their power? If that’s militaristic, if it’s hierarchical, if it’s exploitative, then regardless of what the skin tone of somebody carrying that out is, it can be fascistic in its nature.
Inmn 20:44
Yeah, I like something that you said earlier, which I think is an interesting frame. So, I feel like people in the United States, you might hear people like, talk about the rise of fascism, or the like, emergence of fascism, as if it’s this new thing, you know? And I like how you read it, in the formation of the United States as a nationalistic identity with this idea that fascism has always been here, fascism has always been a part of the settler colonial project of the United States.
Michael 21:27
Well, I was gonna follow up that is if you look at the countries in which fascism came to power in Europe, they were mainly countries where they felt they were not adequate empires in their own right. In other words, Spain, even Portugal, France, England, you know, had empires. Germany came late to imperialism. And even to the formation of a German state, the German bourgeoisie was not able to really unify all the Germans into a single nation. Same thing with Italy. Italy was, you know, a bunch of kind of mini states and city states and came late to the formation of a national sense of Italy. And so I think that fascism presented itself as a overarching ideology that could galvanize a nation and launch it into an imperial mode where it could compete with other empires. So the US context is a little different because, as I say, from the very beginning it had that element of settler colonialism and cross-class alliance in which not only the bourgeoisie but even working people could be induced to participate in that project of land theft and genocide. There’s a famous book called "How the Irish Became White" by Noel Ignatiev who talked about, you know, how white supremacy affected Irish workers. And what he didn’t really look at was that there was some Irish involved right from the very beginning and trying to overturn the land relationships between settlers. They wanted, you know, there was a land theft and a land hunger that they had, and so, for example, even before the question of relation between Irish workers and Black workers came up, there were Irish in the United States that wanted to overturn the agreements that had been reached in Pennsylvania between the Quakers and the indigenous people in Pennsylvania. The Irish wanted land and they wanted to participate in taking that land from the native people. And then that had repercussions back in Ireland itself because that the US Empire and those land thefts then affected the consciousness of the Irish within Ireland itself and weaken the Irish struggle for independence from British colonialism because there was a safety valve of the US Empire. And so I think that it’s critical to look at these things because it gives us a sense of what is at stake at different times and what’s at issue. And I think that looking at the question of decolonization, looking at the question of solidarity and unity, is the flip sides to this. If we only look at the power of the bourgeois, if we look at the power of the fascists, it can be intimidating or overwhelming or depressing. And I think that that’s the…You know, when you talk about preparedness and some of these things, you’re talking about what are the generative powers of the people themselves because Imperialism and Capitalism are based on a kind of parasitical relationship. They’re extracting wealth from the Earth itself and from the labor of people and turning it into a power over the Earth and over the people. And I think that understanding that actually all that wealth that the system has, all the power that the system has is actually coming out of the people who are oppressed and exploited in the land gives us a sense of what our own powers are and what our own capacity to be creative and generative are. To the extent we exercise those, it weakens them. And I think that that’s a critical understanding.
Inmn 25:16
Yeah. Are there ways that fascism is currently manifesting that feel different from say, I don’t know, like 40 years ago?
Michael 25:29
Well, I think the whole phenomenon of social media and the way in which they very effectively organized these Neofascist forces through the gaming…hypermasculine gaming stuff and, you know, I think…We talked a little bit about the..I think the reason that people approached me to do this podcast had to do with my essay in "¡No Pasarán!: Antifascist Dispatches from a World in Crisis." And so that’s a piece where I talked about, you know, some of this history of different struggles and how they…what lessons to extract from them. But the other book I’ve been working on and put out recently, is called "The Blue Agave Revolution: Poetry of the Blind Rebel." This was a book…I was approached by Oso Blanco, an indigenous political prisoner here in the United States who was involved with actually robbing banks to support the Zapatistas in Mexico, and he was getting "Turning the Tide," the newspaper I’ve been working on for many years that we send free to prisoners, and he approached me. He wanted to work on a book and he said he wanted me to work on the book with him. And he had…"The Poetry of the Blind Rebel" is a story arc and poetry arc of his work that is a story about the Mexican Revolution of the early 20th century, the 1910s-1920. It’s kind of magical realism. But, he asked me to write some fiction. And so I wrote kind of a short story cycle of a three way fight between vampires, zombies, and humans. And the vampires are basically–I mean, it’s Dracula–but, you know, there’s one point where there’s a woman who has been trying to grapple with this and she forms a cross with two wooden tent stakes and he kind of laughs and says, "Oh, you bought that old wive’s tale. We totally integrated into the church and into the State," you know. Basically, the vampires represent the bourgeoisie because they [the bourgeoisie] are vampiric and parasitic and they have powers. The zombies in this story are a group of incels that have captured a vampire and they think that they can create a potion from vampire blood that will give them power over women and make them…you know…And instead, they turn themselves into zombies. And so then there’s a sort of three way fight between the bourgeoisie on the one hand, these vampires, the fascists from below, these sort of incel zombies that have to eat brains, and then the humans who are trying to deal with both of them. And I think that that’s an important understanding that, you know, there are contradictions between the vampires and zombies but they’re both our enemy. And so, I think that that’s an approach that we have to understand that they’re….You know, it’s not a simple linear equation that’s going on. There’s a lot of things happening. I think that the fascists from below have contradictions with the fascists above, and we can take advantage of that. And then…but, we have to understand that their, you know, it’s not…I think there are weaknesses…[Trails off] Let me go back to this. You know, historically, people have talked about antifascism and anti-imperialism, and there’s been an element in both of those of class collaboration. A lot of people in the anti-imperialist movement think, "Oh, well, there’s a sort of a national bourgeoisie that also doesn’t like the Empire and wants to exert itself. And we have to ally with them. And a lot of people in antifascist movements have thought, "Oh, well, there’s, you know, bourgeois Democrats who also hate fascism," and I think that those have been weaknesses historically. And also the contradiction between people who concentrate mostly antifascism, the people who concentrate mostly on anti-imperialism has weakened people’s movements. I think having a kind of overarching understanding that fascism is rooted in Empire, particularly in settler colonialism, and that there isn’t a contradiction. We have to find the forces of popular resistance that will overturn both fascism and imperialism…and capitalism. And, that we have to, you know, have a self determined struggle for decolonization and recognize people’s self determination in their own struggles and their own capacity to live in a different way and to begin to create, you know, the solidarity forever, we say, you know, "Build a new world from the ashes of the old." And, I think that in terms of my own work, I’ve tried to–although, you might think I’m aging out at this point, but I’ve been involved at every point that there’s an upsurge in struggle. I’ve tried to participate in that as part of Occupy LA. And more recently, I’ve been involved with some of the dual power organizing that’s going on. And I don’t know how much your people are familiar with that, but it is a conception related to, let’s say, Cooperation Jackson, in Mississippi, where they’re trying to figure out ways of organizing themselves economically and also resisting the power of the State. And so I was at the Dual Power Gathering that took place in Indiana last summer and there’s one on the West Coast that’s coming up in the Portland area.
Inmn 31:06
Yeah, could you explain what–for our listeners–what is dual power?
Michael 31:11
Yeah, so dual power is the concept that we have a power and we can exercise that power, and within the framework of this contemporary society, which is so destructive, we can begin to generate and exercise that power, and that there’s, as I said, a kind of dialectic between the power of the people and the power of the State, and the corporations, and the power of the fascist, and that the different prefigurative elements of the kind of society we want to live in in the future can be created now. And, that as we exercise that power, it weakens the power of the State. It weakens the power of the bourgeoisie and the power of the imperialists. I went to that Dual Power Gathering in Indiana–I mean, it’s not my bio region, but I did used to live in Chicago–and I felt some affinities with it. You know, they were…To talk about the idea of, you know, what’s the relationship between dual power and our three-way fight, with a different conception with what the three-way fight is, that we are having to contend with two different enemies, you know, these fascists from below and the fascist from above, the State, and corporate power, and then also right-wing elements. And I think that in terms of both of those, we have to understand what are the powers that we have to organize ourselves to, as they say, to apply the generative and regenerative powers to…So that people have a sense of what they’re fighting for. It’s not just anti-this and anti-that. So for example, the newspaper I’ve worked in for many years, "Turning the Tide," originally, we called it the "Journal of Anti-Racist Action," or "Anti-Racist Action Edcuation & Research," and then we changed the subtitle a few years ago to, "The Journal of Intercommunal Solidarity," in the sense that you have to say what you’re fighting for? What are we trying to build? What are we trying to create? What are we creating? And how does that give us the capacity to continue to resist and continue to shape the future, not just react always to what they’re doing but actually have a proactive, generative stance. And so, you know, people’s creative cultural expressions, people’s capacity to do permaculture in urban environments or many other things like that, that say, that we want to restore the biological diversity, you know. We want to restore the capacity of the soil. We want to restore the clarity of the water and the air in the process of struggling for our own liberation. And that, you know, those are things that can happen and must happen now. We can’t wait for some revolution that will happen in the future in which you know, we’ll create a better world. We have to start in the context and the interstices of the system in the place that people are being pulverized. And so, you know, in Los Angeles, people are involved in various kinds of mutual aid work and working with the homeless, working with people being evicted to take over homes and restore them. And I think all those manifestations, that’s the question of dual power there. We’re looking at the incapacity of the people ruling this society to actually meet basic human needs and we’re trying to figure out how to meet them. So, I think that’s where it coincides with this question of preparedness is that I think that is a sense that people have to rely on their own resources, their own energies, and understanding that there’s a contradiction between the system, the way it functions, and its implications and impact on us. And it’s incapacity, its powerlessness, to really protect people from the kinds of calamities it’s creating, whether it’s flooding, or firestorms, or, you know, all the other manifestations of this global crisis of the Earth’s system that is growing out of Capitalism. We have to deal with that now. We can’t wait, you know, till sometime in the future when we have, you know, "power," quote unquote, you know? We have the power to start to deal with it.
Inmn 35:17
Yeah, and, I feel like there have been different ways that people have tried to do exactly that in the past. And I don’t know, like, I’m thinking of a lot of the stuff that the Black Panthers were doing, like creating communities that they…like, declaring that they had power and that they had the power to build the communities that they wanted and to preserve those communities. And then they faced an incredible amount of repression, like, as much for arming themselves as for giving kids lunch and breakfast. And I’m wondering, in what ways does the State try to like…or in what ways has the State tried to destabilize dual power movements in the past? And what can we kind of expect them to do now? Or what are they doing now? Does that make sense?
Michael 36:35
Yeah, I think there’s always a two-pronged approach by the state. And, sometimes it’s referred to as, "The carrot and the stick." You know, it’s co-optation ad coercion. And so they always attempt both to control as they modify people’s thinking and try to create bourgeois alternatives to liberatory thinking and liberatory organizing. And then simultaneously, they have the repressive aspects, the criminalization of those efforts. And so in relation to the Black Panther Party, for example, they were simultaneously pushing what they called Black Capitalism, and saying, "Oh, yes, you know, we’ll give you, you know, we’ll find the sector of Black community that can integrate into the system." And then, along with that, they were carrying out COINTELPRO, which was a war strategy of creating contradictions inside Black Liberation organizations, setting one against the other, trying to execute and/or incarcerate people who were not willing to compromise their principles. So I think we have to be aware that you’re seeing the same thing go on around policing issues. You know, they constantly want to put forward different reforms and accountability measures and ways that people can participate in civilian oversight mechanisms that really don’t do anything. And at the same time, they’re, you know, attacking people who are doing Copwatch or groups like the Stop LAPD Spying Network, which has exposed a lot of stuff about this constantly being targeted. So, I think that those, that the two-pronged approach by the State is something we have to be very aware of. It’s not only coercion and criminalization and repression, but it’s also co-optation and, you know, giving people individual solutions and mechanisms that are…they call it the nonprofit industrial complex, you know, this whole mechanism of structures that are set up to get people involved in grant writing and looking to philanthropists to somehow support them in their work. And I think that trying..You know, one of the things the Black Panther Party did was it had its own self generated funding by going to the base community they were trying to organize in, talking to small shopkeepers, and talking to churches, and trying to integrate that into these Liberatory efforts. So, I think that, you know, looking at that model, when I started doing, for example, People Against Racist Terror, there were a lot of small anti-racist groups around the country and a lot of them ended up going the route of looking for grants and looking for nonprofit organizations that they could fold themselves into, and I think that that kind of denatured them. They became, you know…As opposed to being grassroots, they became board and staff organizations, and individuals would create careers out of it. And I think that that mechanism of transforming popular movements into nonprofit organizations or nongovernmental organizations that accommodate themselves to existing power structures, existing economic realities, is one of the things that we need to try to avoid happening in this current period.
Inmn 40:18
That makes that makes a lot of sense. Yeah, it’s, it’s funny, because I feel like I’m seeing a lot of groups involved in mutual aid, who are, I think, taking that lesson of the nonprofit industrial complex but are also trying to access larger swaths of money than the communities that they’re part of can provide, like this model of, it’s important to involve your community base in those things and to generate those things ourselves, but there is this problem sometimes of like, you’re passing the hat and the same 20 people are kicking into the bail fund. And I don’t know, I think maybe this is just me being hopeful, but I’m seeing a lot of mutual aid groups kind of dip into grant writing or dip into utilizing nonprofit statuses more so than structures in order to access funding and things like that. But what I’m seeing is people coming at it from like, hopefully, what is a different perspective of taking these lessons of the past and being like, "Well, we don’t want to become some horrifying, large nonprofit, but we do want the State to give us 10 grand so that we can build infrastructure. Like I guess my question is, are there ways to responsibly interact with that? Or is this a trap?
Michael 41:57
I guess I’d have hear more details. I think it’s imperative that it has to come from below and from the grassroots. I think that, you know, I’ve been involved with the opposite, for example, Pacifica Radio, and Pacifica is listener sponsored radio and is a constant struggle about how much can we accept cooperation of broadcasting funding. They cut us off some years ago and we’re trying to get it back Or, there’s struggles about trying to get some underwriting. It depends who you’re accountable to for the money that you’re getting. Are you accountable primarily to the funder? Are you accountable primarily to the people who are using that money and the people who are self organizing for community power and community sustainability, and, you know, some of the things we’re talking about of self determined strategies. And, you know, I do think that what happened to a lot of the 60s movements is that there was an ebb in the mass movement. And then people made their separate peace. People were like flotsam and jetsam as the tide of people’s power movements were negatively impacted because of white supremacy, male supremacy, COINTELPRO, and an inadequate response to deal with it. Then, you know, people ended up in labor unions where they were doing some good work, but basically they became part of a labor bureaucracy where they ended up in government social services/ They were doing some good work, but they became part of that mechanism. So, I think the critical thing is trying to keep control of what’s going on in the hands of the people who are actually organizing themselves and their communities.
Inmn 43:55
Yeah. No, that makes sense. What are strategies that we should be embracing for countering this current current escalation in fascist tendencies?
Michael 44:10
Well, you know, I’ve done a lot of work over the years, and as I say, "Turning the Tide" is a newspaper, we send a couple of thousand copies almost every issue into the prisons and we’re in touch with a lot of stuff that’s going on in the prisons. And I think that that’s a critical place to look for some understanding about how to deal with this because we do see under what are essentially very naked fascist conditions of domination inside the prisons, which are very hierarchical. There’s a lot of negative activity within the prisons themselves. There’s the power of the guards and the wardens in the system and yet you find struggles going on against racism, against sexism, for solidarity against the solitary confinement of people who have been victims of torture are organizing themselves. And I think that understanding of that capacity and looking at that, those are some of the leading struggles in the United States. There have been hunger strikes, there have been labor strikes, the Alabama Prisoners Movement [Free Alabama Movement] here in California and elsewhere. And I think that sense that people under the most severe repression are actually capable of making human connections among themselves and beginning to actually, in a self critical way, look at how they incorporated toxic masculinity and racism into their own approach to reality, and by beginning to purge themselves of those things, they can begin to create multiracial solidarity among all prisoners to actually resist the conditions of incarceration and resist enslavement. So I think that that’s very important to look at. I think that here in Los Angeles, there are, as they say, organizations like LACAN, that are working among homeless people and with homeless people to organize themselves to have street watches. They have a community garden on the roof of a building. They have cultural expression. They have theatrical groups…coral…You know, it’s like all those things connect people’s love and rage, as I say, people’s ability to generate creative cultural expression and to use that to strengthen their solidarity and their unity and their ability to resist the coercive power of the State or the police sweeps or to expose what’s going on and begin to put out a challenge to the way that society is organized. So I think that those are some critical things. I think that having the capacity to defend ourselves, both physically and also legally is very very important. I think that if you look at stuff like the Stop Cop City struggle that the escalation of repression and the use of charges of terrorism on people that are obviously not terrorists is indicates that the State sees this as a very, very serious threat and is trying to eradicate it and is trying to intimidate people. And I think to the extent that we can turn that around and use it to say to people, you know, "Is this the kind of State you want to live in? Is this the kind of society you want to have?" is a way to begin to change minds and hearts of people who have been going along with the system. I lived through a whole period where we freed many many political prisoners. We freed Bobby. We freed Huey. We freed Angela. And, you know, even the Panther 21 in New York, you know, it’s like the jury met for about 30 minutes and acquitted them all because the power of those organized forces affected the consciousness of the jurors. And I think that understanding that we actually have the power to begin to shape not just own consciousness, to ways that struggle with people, to, "Which side are you on?" and to give people a sense that there is a side that they can identify with and become part of, and transform their own lives, and transform society in the process of doing that. So, I think, you know, for example, the stuff around preparedness is vital that, you know, we’re living in a world in which there are incredibly destructive wildfires, floods, tornadoes, and it’s very clear that the state is incapable of even dealing with it after the fact, let alone preventing it. And so I think that gives us an opening to talk to very wide sectors of the population in cities and in rural areas as well. I think that, you know, for example, Anti-Racist Action Network in its heyday had hundreds of chapters around the country in small towns because young people were, in their own high schools and music scenes, were suddenly faced with this threat of fascism and said, "Hey, we have to get organized." And so I think that, you know, we need to see these things as opportunities to really very massively begin to engage with people and begin to offer an alternative way of thinking about the world that gives some hope and some prospect of dealing not just with the crises and the repression but a way forward for people.
Inmn 49:48
Yeah, yeah. And that kind of ties into–I love that you use this phrase. We’ve had this phrase come up lot with Cindy Milstein, who we’ve interviewed on the podcast before and who we’ve published their newest book last year, "Try Anarchism For Life," and they talk a lot about prefigurative organizing and prefigurative spaces. And I think this kind of ties into what you’re talking about, but I was wondering if you could kind of give us your take on the importance of building prefigurative spaces?
Michael 50:31
Yeah, I think that we have to find ways to bring people together and to give people a sense, as I say, of our own power and our own creative and generative capacity. So I think that that says that whether it’s free schools, or it’s breakfast for children, or any of the things that the Black Panther Party did and that many other people of color movements did in a certain period are here at our disposal. I know that, for example, there’s a crisis in childcare and child rearing that’s going on and so organizing people into childcare collectives and people jointly taking responsibility for each other’s children and creating trust relationships that make people feel comfortable with that would be one example of that. In food deserts, organizing people to break up some sidewalks and grow some food and I think they’re…One of the things that I’ve come to understand from doing this work for a long time is we live in a kind of fractal or holographic world in which the same contradictions are shot all the way through the system. It’s at any level of magnification in fractals. If you look at the coast of Norway, something in the fjords, you know, it’s the same pattern is reproduced at every level. And, you know, in a holographic image, any piece of the hologram has the whole hologram in it. So, I think that any area that people want to choose to struggle in, I think as long as they understand that they’re struggling against the entirety of the system in that area and that there’s an enmity built into that relationship between the system and we see what they’re trying to do, I think that’s the critical understanding. So if people are engaged in, you know, community gardens, as long as they understand that that’s a piece of a larger struggle to create a world in which nature has, has space to reassert itself, and that people can eat different food and better food. And any area that you know, whether it’s the struggle over transgender, nonbinary, or anything else, once people see that it’s the same system throughout that they’re struggling with, it lays a basis for solidarity, for unity, and for a struggle on many fronts simultaneously that says, you know, sort of the "War of the Flea," [A book on guerrilla warfare] the system is vulnerable in a million places because the system is in all those places simultaneously and, you know, they have a lot of money, a lot of power to deal with that, and they’re organized in these systems of command and control and artificial intelligence and all the rest of it to keep track of everything, but we’re in all those places simultaneously as well because we’re everywhere. And trying to coordinate those things, I think, is very important.
Inmn 53:51
This is a little bit of a backup that I remembered that I wanted to ask you about it. So, like, we’re currently seeing like a pretty horrific and intense wave of legislation against against trans people and against queer people, and nonbinary people. And, yeah, I’m wondering what your take on that is as a kind of indicator, if we have to imagine like fascism as a spectrum of where we could be going, like what is that kind of legislation and repression an indicator of?
Michael 54:38
Yeah, you know, I think that obviously fascism always tries to target the people they think are the most vulnerable. And also, as I say, I think they want to create what they see as wedge issues that they can use to divide people and segment people off. And so I think, to the extent that we can reverse that and we can try to unite people around a different conception. You know, one of the things that struck me is that you saw that they sort of had this victory with controlling the courts and overturning Roe v. Wade, for example. And, what that revealed was actually how narrow that really was, the forces that were pushing for that. Because then, you know, Nebraska and Kansas and these various states suddenly had electoral reinforcement of abortion rights happening. And I think the same thing can happen here. I think that there’s so many families that they’re concerned about their own kids or…and the parental rights. It reveals that these fault lines go through the whole system. That’s what I’m trying to say is all of their power is based on repression and exploitation, and to the extent that people begin to see that and how it impacts on them, it opens up the vistas of possibility to say, you know, if you’re concerned about your child’s right to get the medical assistance they need, why is the State coming in to prevent you from doing that? And what are the interests that are trying to pick this as a threat to the stability of society?
Inmn 56:46
And, yeah.
Michael 56:48
So, you know, I think that since every crisis is an opportunity, I think the other thing I did want to talk about a little bit was the whole Covid pandemic, you know, going back to the prepper thing. I think you saw, again, you know, a lot of right-wing exploitation of that issue. And I think that the extent that we can get out ahead of that and look at…Okay, for example, in a society like Cuba, which had a completely different relationship to this because they’re organized in a different way and, you know, they actually have a public health system and they actually created their own vaccines, not the ones from big pharma here in this country, and begin to get people to think about that and why Cuba is stigmatized by this society? Why are they embargoing Cuba, Nicaragua, Venezuela, all these countries? You know, the connection to a global sense of what are the possibilities in the world? What are the prefigurative formations that are happening inside imperialism by countries that are actually resisting it? And so, if you look at, you know, the medical care system in Cuba, for example, you know, they have…Every neighborhood has a doctor that lives in the neighborhood–and nursing staff and other people–and [the doctor] works door to door with the people in that neighborhood to be concerned about their health and their well being not just, you know, responding to a particular medical crisis, and they have that systematized and they…So in that context, they were able to vaccinate people, not through coercive measures but through trusted people that were part of their community that could reassure them about the fact that they developed the vaccines themselves and that the Cuban pharmaceutical industry came out of their effort to deal with chemical and biological warfare by the United States. The US was like putting in swine fever as a way to destroy pigs that every family in Cuba had their own little pig to raise and, you know, supplement their food. And so they developed animal vaccines first to protect those animals and then they work their way up from there. So I think that that sense of, you know…I had a good friend recently who passed away from complications of diabetes and the Cubans have developed treatments for diabetes and to prevent amputation of limbs and other stuff. And all of that is unavailable to us because of the US imperialist embargo on Cuba and blockade. And giving people a sense that, you know, there actually are people living in the world in much better conditions. The United States is number one in incarceration, number one in many social ills, number one in overdose deaths, and, you know, on and on and on…number one in evictions. And we can begin to, you know, really give a sense to people that this system has nothing to offer them but destruction and that we have the capacity to create something different.
Inmn 1:00:13
Yeah. Thanks. I have only to say that…yes. Yes to all of that. We are nearing the end…of the recording, not of the world. [Said as a dry joke] And, yeah, is there any any kind of last things that you want to say before–I’ll ask you to plug anything that you want to plug at the end–I mean, that was such a beautiful wrap up, I feel like. But, if there’s anything else you want to talk about, that we haven’t talked about?
Michael 1:00:45
Well, you know, years ago, I was part of a group in Berkeley that took over the California College of Arts and Crafts to create an anti-war poster making facility during the Vietnam War. And out of that group, there was a singing group called the Red Star Singers, and they had a song called "The Power of the People’s the Force of Life." And I think we really have to have that sense. It’s, you know, it is a dialectic. That’s what I think the main thing I want to try to convey is that, you know, to the extent that we can build the people’s power, it actually weakens that system. And, you know, just that sense that all the power that they have is actually derived from their exploitation and oppression of people. And that’s our power, you know, manifest that against us. And if we take our power back, it actually does weaken them and increases our possibilities of struggling to for a different world. So, I will do the plugs. I, for 35 years, I’ve been working and I actually wanted to sort of break the story here. I’m looking for a collective that will take over "Turning the Tide." I’ve been putting it out for a long, long time. Volume 35 # 2 is just about to come out. It’s up on antiracist.org. You can reach me at antiracistaction_ la@yahoo.com. But, you know, like I say, I’m 76. I’m currently the interim general manager of KPFK radio in Los Angeles and it’s a huge time commitment. And I want I want to see the paper, you know, become, in some way or shape, institutionalized, to continue to meet, you know, send out the 1700-1800 copies to prisoners. And so, if anybody’s interested in taking over that project and fulfilling that commitment, I’d love to hear from them. And then, as I say, I have a chapter in "¡No Pasarán!: Antifascist Dispatches from a World in Crisis" edited by Shane Burley from AK Press. And I contributed a lot of material archival stuff and was interviewed extensively for "We Go Where They Go: The Story of Anti-Racist Action" from PM press. Two really, really important books and well worth reading. And then I did, self published and co-authored "The Blue Agave Revolution: The Poetry of the Blind Rebel" with Oso Blanco, Byron Shane Chubbuck. And you can get that again from Anti-Racist Action. So it’s PO Box 1055, Culver City, California 90232. And online, just Antiracist.org.
Inmn 1:03:27
Wonderful, in "The Blue Agave Revolution," is that Is that where we can find your short story about the three-way fight between vampires, zombies and humans?
Michael 1:03:37
It’s a kind of a novella. There’s about seven chapters of a longer thing. And there’s also a shorter one about a group of teenage mutants called Black Bloc, that they have these kind of minor powers. One of them can, you know, it’s Jackpot and Crackpot. Crackpot can kind of break out of anything and Jackpot can just affect the odds slightly in their favor and a bunch of other young people, nonbinary and so on. But they’re also some different essays of mine in there and a lot of poetry and, yeah…Just the mathematics of the enormity of social economic inequality. People don’t understand exactly what it is, but essentially, about 45% of the US population has the equivalent of 50 cents in assets. You know, people don’t understand exactly what the class divide and the contradictions inside the society are, you know. We’re we’re duped into thinking that this is the richest country on the face of the Earth and the most powerful, you know. There’s an enormous, hidden social cost and pain behind that and we have to figure out how to galvanize that into the power that actually those people possess and the creativity that they have.
Inmn 1:05:03
Yeah. Great. Well, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. Yeah, of course. And I’ll we’ll drop links to all the things that you mentioned in the show notes for people to find. And yeah, thank you.
Michael 1:05:23
Okay. Take care. Have a great day.
Inmn 1:05:25
You too.
Inmn 1:05:26
Thank you so much for listening. If you enjoyed this podcast, then go out and live like the Empire is dying. And then tell us about it. And if you’d like to support this podcast, you can do so by telling people about it. You can support this podcast by talking about it on social media, rating, and reviewing, and doing whatever the nameless algorithm calls for. But, if you’d like to support us in other sillier ways, you can also support us on Patreon at patreon.com/strangersinatangledwilderness, which is our publisher. Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness is a radical media publishing collective that puts out this podcast as well as a few other podcasts. Our Patreon helps pay for things like transcriptions or our lovely audio editor, Bursts, who is the host of The Final Straw, as well as going on to support Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness and a few of the other podcasts we put out like our monthly anarchist literature podcast Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness, as well as the Anarcho Geek Power Hour, which is a podcast for people who love movies and hate cops. And we would like to give a very special shout out to a few of our Patreon subscribers, Princess Miranda, BenBen, Anonymous, Funder, Jans, Oxalis, Janice & O’dell, Paigek Aly, paparouna, Milica, Boise Mutual Aid, theo, Hunter, Shawn, SJ, Paige, Mikki, Nicole, David, Dana, Chelsea, Cat J., Staro, Jenipher, Eleanor, Kirk, Sam, Chris, Michaiah, and the infamous Hoss the Dog. Thank you so much. We could not do this without you. And I hope that everyone out there is doing as well as they can right now with everything that’s going on. And we’ll see you soon.
This week on Live Like the World is Dying, Shane comes on to teach Margaret about distillation and all of the things that one could produce through distillation, like distilled water, hand sanitizer, fuel alcohol, essential oils, and alcohol for drinking. They talk through the science and dispel some myths around the process.
Live Like the World is Dying: Shane on Distillation
Margaret
Hello, and welcome to Live Like the World is Dying, your podcast for what feels like the end times…and it especially feels like the end times at least as we record this. I don’t know when this is gonna come out, but we just had the hottest month on record. Maybe we’ve just had the hottest month on record when you hear this in October. I don’t fucking know. I’m your host. I’m one of your hosts. I’m your only host today, Margaret Killjoy, and this week we’re gonna be talking about something that I’ve wanted to know more about for a long time, although I’m absolutely terrified to have anything to do with it besides on informational and when-the-apocalypse-comes level because this week we are talking about distillation, the thing that should not be anywhere near as illegal as it is…or complicated legally. It’s not always illegal. It’s complicated legally. And we’re gonna be talking about distillation. We’re gonna be talking about distillation of alcohol for like…Well I guess all of it’s distillation of alcohol, but we’re gonna be talking about it from a like medical point of view and like having a good time point of view. And…obviously…don’t do any crimes that you can get caught for. And, this podcast is a proud member of the Channel Zero Network of anarchists podcasts and here’s a jingle from another show on the network. Ba buh bub bub. [Making noises like a song melody]
Margaret
Okay, we’re back. And if you could introduce yourself with your name, your pronouns, and then just a little bit of your background about what we’re gonna be talking about about distillation.
Shane
My name is Shane, pronouns are he/him. I’m a hobby distiller. I’ve been doing it not for that long, but I’ve been doing a ton of research. I’ve been learning a lot about it, and yeah…
Margaret
What kind of….what kind of stuff….Let’s point out that you live in Canada where the crime is a different one. Which isn’t to say…I guess it’s like…Well, obviously don’t do any of the illegal stuff. But it seems like Canada has a very different attitude about this as the United States does. Wanna talk about that?
Shane
Yeah. So where I am, it is illegal. It’s mostly illegal under our tax laws because they don’t want you making it and selling it out of your basement or whatever. It’s not really enforced if you…Don’t take my word for that. Like, this is always gonna be a risk, but it’s not really enforced if you’re just doing it for yourself.
Margaret
Yeah. That makes sense. Is worth pointing out–I’m going to reiterate this way too many times on the show–that the ATF in the United States has a very different attitude about home distillation. And obviously, people still do it. And before we started recording, we looked it up and it looks like it is federally illegal, but not every state has it illegal and like some states that specifically illegal, I believe. Which, just gets into that weird thing in the United States where there’s like some things that are federally illegal but are actually fine state to state.
Shane
Well I believe the ATF is a federal organization. So you know, it’s still a risk if you decide to do that.
Margaret
Yeah, exactly. And I know for my sake, like, I’m literally not going to–usually, I’m like, like…I’m just, I’m not actually going to end up setting up a still. Even though I’m like very curious about the process, just because the cost-benefit analysis isn’t going to work for me, but everyone’s going to do their own cost-benefit analysis and it’s information that I think is very practical and useful for situations in which you don’t live under the United State’s jurisdiction, whether because you live in a different country or because the United States has a collapse, which is one of the main things that we talk about on the show. So probably no one’s gonna be surprised that I think that that’s possible. So with that out of the way, what’s distillation?
Shane
Basically, it’s taking everything that’s not alcohol out of the alcohol and throwing it away. So, you’re just usually heating it up, collecting the steam, cooling the steam down before it escapes your system, and turning it into liquid alcohol.
Margaret
The steam is the liquid alcohol? Or the steam is that not liquid…is the everything else?
Shane
The steam is the liquid alcohol. You want to…ideally you want to collect that as it comes off your still, run it through some sort of cooling sleeve or condenser of some kind, and then collect what comes out the other end.
Margaret
Okay. I like…Whenever someone says like, "And then throw the other parts away." I’m like, "Wait, but tell me about the other parts." Is there like? Can you make like? If you make brandy out of wine, can you have like non alcoholic wine at the end too? Or like, is it just gross weird shit?
Shane
It’s kind of gross, weird shit. There is some uses for it. I believe you can–you may want to look this up, if you have animals before you do this–I think you can mix it with your animal feed to add some nutrition or some calories to that. I’ve heard of some people doing that. I think you can–well, I know one thing you can do with it–there are certain traditions around making rum that actually keep that and put it into the next batch. Sometimes they put it in a pit and let it rot to add flavor. So, be careful with that. [Margaret laughing] But that is something you can do with it.
Margaret
So much like–this has come up on all the fermentation and brewing episodes–like there’s so much stuff that’s just weird magic– [interrupted]
Shane
Yeah.
Margaret
–involved in food. Like, "Oh, yeah, you put it in the pit to rot. And that makes it taste better." And like, I remember once I was picking grapes for wine at a–like someone was just like paying me eight bucks an hour to pick grapes for wine or whatever at a vineyard–and they were…I was like, "Do I pick the moldy ones?" And they were like, "Yes, that’s part of the flavor." And I’m like…I’m probably still gonna drink wine, but I’m going to think more about it as I do it.
Shane
There’s a lot of weird magic stuff in distilling to, actually. So like this…one thing that your fermentation episode, the the magic spoon thing reminded me–or that was not the bread episode, I can’t remember–But…
Margaret
I don’t remember.
Shane
This is just folklore, but there was a thing in Scotland where when a big distillery would get a new still, they didn’t really know how the flavor worked, all the chemistry of it yet. They would get a new still, but they wanted everything that came out to taste like the old one. So, in an effort to coax the spirit out of the old still, they would beat dents into it to make it looks like the old one.
Margaret
Hell yeah. [Laughing]
Shane
And it…that…weirdly enough, that does work. It does, like the shape of the still does affect the flavor. They didn’t know why. But that’s what they told themselves.
Margaret
It is so…I’m so glad I’m not a perfectionist. If I ever like am home brewing or whatever. I’m not going to be like, "I am going to recreate Guinness." I’m just going to be like, "Hell yeah, I made beer."
Shane
I’m the same way.
Margaret
Okay, so like um…what are some of the things…You know, when you when you pitched this episode to me–I was very happy to hear from you because this is something I’ve wanted to talk to someone about for a while–you talked about how there’s a couple different things that one might want to make with a still. I mean, you’re making alcohol, right, but for a lot of different purposes. Do you want to talk about what some of those purposes are?
Shane
Yeah, well, first of all, even if you’re not making alcohol–and this is part of the way that stills get sold in the States and why it’s still usually state by state legal to own one–you can make essential oils with it. You can make purified water. That’s actually a huge survival benefit of having a still is being able to make distilled water. The alcohol can be used to make fuel which I believe is legal in some states. But besides that, like I said, the fuel alcohol, alcohol for tinctures, you can make any spirit you can drink, like vodka, whiskey, rum, etc. You can make hand sanitizer. I know that was a big deal around the start of Covid when hand sanitizer was selling out everywhere. People were, both big distilleries and some moonshiners in some areas, were kind of coming out of the woodwork and saying "Oh, by the way, I have a still. Here’s a bunch of free alcohol to sanitize your hands with."
Margaret
That’s cool. That makes me really happy. Like both sides of that.
Shane
It’s actually one of the things that made me want to get a still was the capacity or the capability to be able to do that…And the obvious reason, but…[Trails off]
Margaret
Yeah, I mean…which is funny because I know that…When I used to, I used to shoot tintypes and one of the stages involves heating the tintype over an alcohol stove. And so in order to buy alcohol for that it had to be denatured, and that’s when I learned that…I’m going to get the different types of alcohol mixed up. Ethanol is the drinking one and methanol is the one that you can’t or something maybe?
Shane
And isopropyl alcohol is the other one you can’t.
Margaret
Okay. And so, Denatured alcohol was alcohol that you can use as fuel. But they specifically add poison to it in order to make it so that you can’t drink it, so that it can only be used for fuel? Is that…does that match?
Shane
That’s right. So that started around prohibition. You used to build by ethanol by the barrel for almost nothing. But, they started requiring by law that you add methanol to it because people still needed alcohol for industrial purposes, but, you know, they added methanol specifically because it was damn near impossible to separate it out. And it’s extremely deadly as well. So…
Margaret
We’re gonna save people from the vice of drinking by murdering them if they drink this alcohol.
Shane
And it murdered a hell of a lot of people.
Margaret
God. Thanks, Protestants for prohibition. [Said with dry sarcasm]
Shane
I think a lot of places are actually moving away from that. So now a lot of alcoholic is denatured with bitterants instead, the same bitterants they put in air dusters. Don’t take that as a reason to go buy some industrial alcohol and drink it, [Margaret laughing] because I’m sure many places are still using methanol. But yeah. Also, it’s gonna taste bad if you do. So…
Margaret
Okay, so let’s talk about like…I want to talk about the non alcohol…the non drinky stuff first. Like you mentioned fuel alcohol. What what do people…like to sell our preppers on fuel alcohol. What are you fueling with fuel alcohol?
Shane
Well, the first example–and one of the things I thought of when I was gonna get a still–I do a lot of camping and I currently use one of those isobutane stoves with the big expensive, disposable isobutane tanks. I’m considering–I haven’t done it yet–but I’m considering making one of those can [like tin can] stoves, which is just a small alcohol stove that cost nothing, weighs nothing, to replace that. Cooking is one big thing you can do. You did mention using the store bought alcohol stove for tintyping. I believe there are alcohol engines, at least very small ones, but I don’t know much about that. I know you can add ethanol to gasoline to make it a little bit more efficient, but I wouldn’t recommend doing that with what comes out of a home still. Because I’m sure that whatever comes out of your home still is going to have some water in it. I wouldn’t recommend combining that with gasoline.
Margaret
Oh, yeah, that sounds bad. Okay, so it’s not like what you’re going to put in your tractor. But, it could be what you’re cooking off of. I suspect that there’s ways…I suspect that there’s like home heaters that can run off of it or ways to use it to heat homes, probably in very sketchy ways and possibly safer ways as well.
Shane
Actually, one thing I’m thinking of there is alcohol heaters are…You can actually make them with a mason jar. I’ve heard of some people, making them as like a mutual aid thing and giving them to people who are stuck in tents during the winter.
Margaret
Oh, yeah, there’s the ones that–you’re right–where you take the copper tubing and you do a little loop and you…Those are cool. And they’re not fake like the…There’s this thing where people are like, "Take a tea light and put it under a pot, and now you’ve heated your tent." People have done a lot of tests about this. It is not more efficient. It is not a very good way of heating and also it’s a fire danger because the melting point…the flash point of wax is lower than the amount of heat that the terracotta pot can eventually put out. And so, you can you can start a fire that way. So actually, ironically, this like…Yeah, no, that’s right, heater block. I need to have them on at some point talking about how people use these things.
Shane
They’re also fire risk, but I imagine less so than a camp stove going off in your tent. So…People have made chicken wire cages and stuff for them as well.
Margaret
What is the like raw material that you’re going to be using? Well, let’s just talk about how you…How do you distill? Let’s use fuel alcohol as like the main–because it’s like the neutral one, right? It’s not about flavor. It’s just a, "Let’s make ethanol." How do you make ethanol?
Shane
For making ethanol for fuel, if flavor doesn’t matter at all, you basically want to find the cheapest source of sugars you can find. If you’re already into home brewing, I imagine grain, malted grain, is probably one of the cheapest sources. If you don’t have any equipment for dealing with grain, your best bet is probably buying the cheapest sugar you can find at a grocery store, combining that with some yeast nutrient, and some yeast, and fermenting that. That’s what I’ve…That’s what a lot of people will do when they start distilling. If they’re trying to make a neutral like vodka or fuel or something, they’ll make what’s called a sugar wash.
Margaret
So a sugar wash is basically just fermented sugar with no added flavoring?
Shane
Yeah. And well…People will add things that are, like I said, nutrient. And one of the more common, more popular ways of doing it, if you’re trying to preserve flavor, is using tomato paste as most of the nutrient. Because if you’re adding a very little, very small amount of it, then it’s not affecting the flavor when it’s all said and done.
Margaret
When you say nutrient, I presume you don’t mean nutrient for the end drinker. Is this nutrient for the yeast or something?
Shane
This is nutrient for the yeast.
Margaret
So they need more than just sugar to survive.
Shane
Yes, like us, they can’t survive on sugar alone.
Margaret
But I’ve tried.
Shane
Yes. We all have.
Margaret
It’s so cheap.
Shane
You put that into a bucket, probably the biggest container you can find, with some water. Obviously, don’t just try to ferment the sugars alone. And leave that for about a week. If you do have a lot of the home fermenting equipment like hydrometers, and things like that, you can get a little more scientific about it. You probably don’t want to go any higher than 1.01 gravity. Which is…Because beyond that, the yeast doesn’t really like to be there. If you’re trying to preserve flavor, don’t go any higher than 1.0…or 1.007. I might be misremembering how to read these.
Margaret
Wait, but then why when you make beer, you’re like, you’re going way higher than 1%, right?
Shane
Not 1%. Sorry, when I say the starting gravity, you’re measuring the amount of sugar, that’s when you get that little thermometer looking thing and you float it in your ferment. So, you actually want to go to about 10 to 12%. So you can do the math to figure out how you want to get there.
Margaret
Okay, so the basic…Is the basic idea of distillation…the basic idea is you make a low alcohol thing, like beer, or wine, or just a sugar wash…You make some…alcohol, right? And then you’re concentrating it by pulling out everything that isn’t alcohol out of it in the still by–I think you already said this–by evaporating–I assume alcohol is a lower evaporation point than everything else is like the reason it works or something–and then you like run it through some cooling and then you end up with alcohol on the other end? That’s the high percent alcohol? Okay.
Shane
So if you want to get a little more into distillation theory, it is a bit more complicated than that. But essentially, yeah, it is just because alcohol boils at 70 degrees instead of 100. The alcohol is gonna boil off first.
Margaret
Is that Celsius?
Shane
Yes, sorry.
Margaret
Great. No, we can use Celsius. Yeah, just wanted to…Yeah.
Shane
Especially when it comes to anything distillation related, I tend to default to that. Canada is one of the…kind of like the UK where we have a mix of units. But uh…
Margaret
Yeah, I think Celsius is better for science stuff and Fahrenheit is better for like how cold it is outside stuff, personally.
Shane
Especially if you’re talking about boiling points of liquids. So…It’s kinda made exactly for that.
Margaret
Yeah, that is I guess that is Celsius’ main thing, yeah. Okay, so you make your sugar mash. Okay, let’s just..To run through it, you’ve made your sugar wash, not sugar mash, sugar wash. Now, what are we…now what are you doing?
Shane
Mash is usually…If you’re making it with grains, you’ll call it a mash. But, after that, you will take all that and put it in your boiler, so the part of your still that’s actually supposed to eat. You’ll seal everything up, make sure there’s no leaks. You obviously want to keep an eye on that. So one quick safety note: The most dangerous thing coming out of your still is vapor alcohol. Ideally, you don’t want any vapor coming out at any point. That’s why you have the condenser to cool everything.
Margaret
Oh shit. Yeah, because it’s explosive.
Shane
It’s very flammable. It’s far more flammable than just a pool of liquid alcohol sitting there.
Margaret
Oh shit.
Shane
Unless you are…unless you have terrible terrible luck and you’re in a closed system, it’s not going to explode. But, it could cause a pretty bad fire. So I keep a fire extinguisher next to my still at all times. Anyway, so like I said, you want to seal everything up, make sure your water is running through your condenser, if using that kind of condenser and turn on the heat…
Margaret
What’s a…just tell me what a condenser is.
Shane
So a condenser, because you don’t want any steam coming out because it’s hard to collect, it’s kind of…All the steam will go through your condenser. The condenser will cool it all down, condense it back into a liquid, and liquid will come out of the other end.
Margaret
This is the like…wrapped copper pipe or some…tube?
Shane
Yeah, so there’s a few different kinds. If you’re looking at like a moonshine still, you’re gonna see a copper tube coiled up through a bucket. I personally, I’ve had one of those. I hate that style. Because unless you’re doing it outside by a river, it’s kind of hard to control how much water is going through it and prevent it from overflowing. The kind I’d recommend, if you’re going the DIY route, is a Liebig condenser, which is…You can look up easy plans online. So, you have a smaller copper pipe, a larger copper pipe on the outside of that with water running through it. So you’ll have two, like an inlet and an outlet, and the hose or something running through that. And that’s usually enough to cool down however much steam is coming out the other end.
Margaret
Okay, so like the big…When people talk about distillation, right, the big things people worry about is the government, obviously, but then also safety, like the food safety level of it, right? How dangerous is it to make ethanol? Are you going to go blind if you drink it? Is it safe to make fuel alcohol, dangerous to make drinking alcohol? Is it all overblown? Are there certain things that people can do? Please, whoever’s listening, don’t assume that you know how to do things just because you heard about it on a podcast. See this as like an overview and an overall interest.
Shane
Well, like I said, the main danger is fire safety. It’s very flammable. Especially in the olden days, when they would do this on a propane fire or a wood fire or whatever. If you can avoid it, don’t run your still over an open flame. I know your great grandfather probably did. But don’t,
Margaret
So don’t use the fuel alcohol to make more alcohol. [Laughing],
Shane
Preferably no. Unless you’re outside and you’re away from anything flammable.
Margaret
Okay.
Shane
But as far as food safety goes, there is a tiny amount of methanol whenever you ferment something. The methanol is the thing that makes you go blind, apparently. But the thing is, you’re not getting anything out of your still that wasn’t in the wine, or sugar wash, or beer that you put into it. There’s not really any risk of methanol poisoning unless you really screwed something up with fermenting, in which case you would also get it from drinking whatever you drank, whatever you made from, whatever you fermented. There is this myth that popped up around prohibition because…So moonshiners would make their moonshine and they will try to increase their yields a little bit by adding industrial alcohol. That is where the myth of going blind and methanol poisoning comes from. It’s not from people running their still in competently, it’s from people trying to pass off industrial alcohol as safe.
Margaret
Okay, so like denatured alcohol got it in the mix?
Shane
Yeah, exactly. And sometimes there was never even a still involved. It’s just some unscrupulous guy bought a bunch of industrial alcohol, threw some juniper berries in it, and called a gin.
Margaret
Okay. I’m half convinced that–I’m not from where I live right now, right–I’m half convinced that the person around here who gave me some moonshine, I’m like, half convinced that they just gave me some like,fucking vodka with food flavoring in it, and were like, "Yeah, that bitch isn’t gonna fucking know the difference." But, yeah, I do…I like to think that I that they didn’t do that, to me.
Shane
There’s a big trend of you can just buy moonshine in alcohol and liquor stores now. But it’s…a lot of people kind of don’t consider it real moonshine because it wasn’t made in the backwoods in an old copper still.
Margaret
Yeah, I mean, in my mind, moonshine means illegally manufactured alcohol that’s very alcoholic.
Shane
Sorry, back to the like, the safety thing. There is one note. So, a lot of people will tell you when you’re running you’re still, that first thing you have to do is take the four shots out. And that’s the first ounce or so that comes out of you’re still…
Margaret
What’s that called, the four shot?
Shane
Four shots. So that’s a bit outdated. It comes from….So, basically a bunch of people were dying from from methanol poisoning and moonshiners were–the honest ones– were scratching their heads trying to figure out what they were doing wrong. And so they thought, "Well, the methanol has a lower boiling point. So we can just take off whatever comes out first and throw that away," right?
Margaret
Okay.
Shane
Unfortunately, it’s not that simple. Methanol and alcohol have very similar boiling points, and they come off throughout the entire run. You’re not going to get rid of all the methanol by getting rid of the first shot. But what you…So, you don’t really need to take four shots, but when you’re distilling for drinking purposes, you’re not going to drink the first little bit anyway. So you’re going to take your cuts, so your four shots, the first section of cuts, then there’s the heads, which has some acetone, some fruity esters, some nasty stuff in it that you don’t really want, and you’re gonna throw all that away.
Margaret
Can you use it as fuel alcohol or no?
Shane
Oh, yeah, you can still use that as fuel alcohol.
Margaret
Okay.
Shane
That’s right. I shouldn’t have even said throw it away. I don’t throw mine away, personally. I use it when I start fires.
Margaret
I’m sure it’s the way people talk about it. I just have a weird like, "Throw something away?!" But I’m a hoarder…I mean, uhhh, preparedness. Okay. Yeah.
Shane
The four shots thing is a bit outdated but that is…some people still do it as sort of a "just in case" or superstition more than anything. But that’s the…The main thing is in the heads, there are things that aren’t good for you. But like I said before, those things are going to be in your beer or your wine that you’re fermenting anyway. The worst thing they’re going to do is give you a worse hangover if you drink them.
Margaret
Oh, okay. That…I’ve always wondered why different…I’ve had some homebrew that has caused everyone in the room to blackout.
Shane
Mhmm.
Margaret
So, I’ve had some…I’ve had some homemade moonshine, also, that caused everyone to blackout. So it was probably heads or just like poorly made or something.
Shane
There’s a another bit of like folklore. So there’s another type of distilling you can do–this is a bit of a tangent–called a freeze…fractional freezing, where you take your–this is commonly done with apple cider–you take your cider, you put it in the freezer, you let it freeze, you scoop out all the ice, and what’s left is a higher proof, higher strength.
Margaret
Wow, that’s cool.
Shane
So, that was considered one of the first distilled beverages people would drink because it was called Applejack. And the hangovers from it were so bad that they gave them its own name Applepalsy because you couldn’t take cuts when you’re doing that. People would get completely sloshed on Applejack and they would…they probably woke up wishing they had methanol poisoning.
Margaret
So because you’ve talked about how all the like methanol and acetone and all that stuff is already in your homemade beer, right?
Shane
Exactly.
Margaret
But it seems like maybe the distillation process…like Applejack sounds like kind of was giving people a worse time than the apple cider was, is that because it’s just a higher concentration, right? It’s the literal amount of acetone, but there’s like…it’s just distilled?
Shane
It’s mostly because people were drinking more of it and they’re drinking it faster. So, if you take like a 500 mil, or a standard bottle of cider, and you drink all of that, it’s not going to hurt you any less than if you distilled that and then drank everything that came out of it. But, you know, it’s easier to get drunker on spirits than it is on cider.
Margaret
Yeah, that’s true.
Shane
No. I also…the one thing I definitely wouldn’t recommend, I wouldn’t recommend taking all the heads and just drinking that because then you are getting a higher concentration of the acetone and methanol and…
Margaret
Right, so most people are getting rid of their heads also, and then only taking–what’s the the opposite? Tails? What comes after heads?
Shane
Wait, why are you watering it down? Wait, I’m a little confused. What does, "take your cuts" mean in this context?
Shane
Tails is the last bit. You don’t really want that either. Hearts is the good stuff in the middle. [Margaret giggles] So when you’re taking your…typically, when you’re running to still, you’ll run it into mason jars, or any other small jar or whatever you can collect a lot of, and you’ll just, you’ll taste as you go, and you’ll just swap out the jars as they fill up. And then the next day, when you got a fresh palate, you’ll look at everything, water it down, taste it, and see where you want to make your cuts.
Shane
Take your cuts is when you figure out where your heads are, like where the nasty acetone, sickly sweet stuff is. And you water it down because you don’t want to be like tasting 70%. You’re not going to get much out of that. So you’re figuring out what’s your heads, what’s your heart, the good stuff, and what’s your tails, which is where it starts smelling a little weird, wet dog ish?
Margaret
Oh, I see. So it’s not like, "The first third is this. The second third is this." Instead, you take all of it, and you keep it like all lined up so you know what’s what. And then you’re like, "Alright, jar three, it’s starting to get a little bit less nasty. Jar five, it’s smelling…it taste good. Jar nine, it tastes bad again."
Shane
Exactly. So unless you have a really well established recipe and you have a very consistent still, you’re never gonna base it on how much has come through, or what temperature it’s at, or what proof it’s at. You’re gonna base on taste. So, if you’re running an industrial pot still, you’re probably running off of an established recipe that your boss made for you. And so you’re you’re measuring, okay, so the alcohol is at 65%. We’re going to start our heads…or our hearts here and separate that out. But if you’re running a home still, you’re not gonna be able to do that usually.
Margaret
Okay. Alright, so I have questions. Is there a way to test for methanol?
Shane
Not at home that I know of. But again, if you are the one who fermented the product, and you’re the one who put it in your still, I wouldn’t worry too much about it. It’s…Like I said, it’s going to be in your cider or your beer or whatever. Anyway. It’s almost impossible… [Interrupted]
Margaret
If you’re willing to drink your beer, you should be willing to drink your whiskey.
Shane
Yeah, it’s damn near impossible to get a lethal amount, or even a slightly dangerous amount, of methanol and your spirits.
Margaret
Okay. All right. My other question is, what are the variables? Like you talked about, like people in Scotland were like, denting their stills? Or maybe they’re fermenting for beer? I don’t remember what they were denting.
Shane
It was the stills. Yep.
Margaret
Okay. So it’s like, does the taste and all of that change based on how quickly it came to a boil versus how quickly it didn’t? Is it? Like, like, what are the…I assume there’s just like a million variables and that makes it fun. So I kinda want to hear about them.
Shane
There’s so many variables that this is like an active area of study in like industrial distilling. We don’t know all the chemicals that are in like whiskey, for example. I’ll use whiskey as an example because that’s where flavor matters the most for a lot of people. Like when you’re fermenting something, what kind of yeast you use matters a lot, what kind of grain, how much of each grain. And yeast doesn’t just produce alcohol. Depending on how–people use the term stress–depending on how stressed out the yeast is, like how perfect the environment is for the yeast is going to produce different chemicals.
Margaret
How its day at work was and stuff.
Shane
Yeah, basically. If you ferment at a different temperature, or if you have too much sugar in your wash, that’s going to affect the flavor. And if you use a different species of yeast, etc, but…And then, when it’s in the still, all those different chemicals that that yeast made, and there’s a lot of them, and also putting things that were just in the grain, not even things the yeast had anything to do with, all that comes off at a different temperature, at a different time. Some of it will come off in the heads. Like, I mentioned, acetone. There’s also some…fruity tasting compounds that will come off in there that the yeast made or that were in the grain. The variable there is the fermentation, I guess. The next one would probably be…So you’ve probably noticed that most people make their stills out of copper.
Margaret
Yeah. I think so. I knew the pipes were but yeah.
Margaret
That’s okay. It seems like we’ve kind of…fuel alcohol was a good base for now.
Shane
The reason for that, aside from the fact that that’s probably what you can get at a hardware store when you’re making moonshine, is there’s also some sulfur compounds that kind of give the spirit a weird taste or smell, and copper supposedly does a pretty good job of stripping some of that out. So the more copper contact the vapor has in your still, the better. For flavor, at least. We’re kind of getting away from few alcohol here. But that’s for…
Shane
For fuel alcohol, you want to run it as high proof as you can. Ideally, don’t put anything more than 40%. in you’re still if you’re running in your kitchen because for safety reasons. You just want to get as high proof as you can. That’s the main thing. You want yield. But, for flavor, the amount of copper contact, the shape of the still matters because of something called reflux or passive reflux.
Margaret
Oh, I get that…Sorry, that’s a joke about heartburn. Anyway…
Shane
I mean, it’s similar in a still, weirdly enough, but like if you want to get more into the difference between the pot still and reflux still later, we can. But basically, a reflux still is something that does this on purpose. A pot still, depending on the shape of it and the temperature around you when you’re distilling, some of the…As the vapor is going up, and before it even gets to your condenser, some of it is going to condense and fall back down. And some of it is going to condense and stick to the side of your still. And that’s going to interact more with the vapor. That changes what chemicals come through it. Usually the more volatile chemicals will come through when that happens.
Margaret
So y’all are nerds, I’m guessing.
Shane
Oh, yeah.
Margaret
That’s cool. I love that hobbies have like weird deep divy shit. So people like care about what percent of their vapor is coming down the sides and stuff because of how it changes the taste and other things?
Shane
Mhmm. And like I said, people didn’t know how this worked before. They would literally just say, "Well, that I know that still makes some really good stuff. Let’s just beat up this still so it looks like that one." And it works. So. No, you also don’t have to get this nerdy with it. You can just buy a cheap Amazon or even there’s….
Shane
There’s a good company called Still Spirits that makes a home still. You can buy one of those, throw your sugar wash in, mix it with some flavorings, and you got booze. If that’s all you want to do. But..I’m a nerd about it. So yeah.
Margaret
Like a cheap water purifier?
Shane
Exactly.
Margaret
No, I mean, it seems like the kind of thing where like…I always go at things at two levels. I like first just like do it. And I like don’t want to get nerdy when I first start. I just want to like, "Fuck yeah, I made some…" Well, I don’t want to do this because…whatever. But like, I made some rum or whatever, right? I just want to do it and then after that, that’s when I want to like do it the same over and over again or like compare the different things. And, so a lot of the variables and stuff aren’t going to matter if your goal is to just have rum and you don’t care if the rum is consistent because you’re not a commercial thing.
Margaret
And it’s more about it being fun to try and create the consistency?
Shane
You may still want to get nerdy with the cuts, though, because….
Margaret
Because you don’t want to drink acetone. you’re not perceived. Acetone
Shane
Not for safety reasons. Even if you’re just make…even if you just want to get some rum made and try it. If you don’t bother taking cuts at all, it’s going to taste awful. So at least put it in the jars and taste it and see what’s best. So that’s as nerdy as you want to get for your first go. That’s what I did. That’s as nerdy as I got my first run.
Margaret
What um, what was your first run? What would you recommend if they’re different? What do you like making?
Shane
Honestly for your first run, just do a sugar wash because you’re gonna throw that away or use it for fuel anyway because you want to do a cleaning run. If you got your still on Amazon or if you made it yourself, you want to make sure you get anything that could dissolve in alcohol out of there, like any fluff solder or whatever. And also make sure you using plumbing solder not leaded solder, that sort of thing. But…After that, the first thing I did was rum, because it was kind of easy. All I had to do was just figure out a way to ferment molasses. And I live not too far away from a place that makes molasses. So, it was really cheap for me to get a big jug of it.
Margaret
Hell yeah. Can I get some molasses?
Shane
But for your first go, you’re probably going to do a sugar wash anyway. And I’d recommend turning it into gin because it’s not gonna taste great on its own.
Margaret
Yeah, I was going to ask. Okay, so like…in my head, every hard liquor is like, the distillation of some soft liquor? But why is it called hard liquor? There’s no other…All liquors hard liquor? Is that? Wait…
Shane
If it’s distilled, it’s hard, I think. I don’t know. Different legal definitions.
Margaret
Yeah. So, like, in my mind, whiskey is like, beer that you take too far. Brandy has wine that you take too far. Not too far. But further…But maybe I like run out because I actually don’t know what rum is…It’s apparently made from molasses. Is vodka?
Shane
Anything. Any sugar cane product. Technically a sugar wash, I think, is rum. So, sugar cane…the easiest way for me to get sugar cane concentrate is in molasses from the store. So.
Margaret
Molasses is just burned sugar, right?
Shane
Molasses is just concentrated sugar cane juice. So fancy molasses is that Blackstrap stuff. They boil it to get all the sugar out of it and what’s left over as Blackstrap molasses. So it’s like a byproduct at that point, basically.
Margaret
That’s kind of cool. I like weird byproducts that people have probably figured out by now. Okay, what’s vodka? Is it potato liquor?
Shane
Vodka. A lot of people think it’s potato liquor. It’s really just neutral grain alcohol. So, it’s basically, pretty much anything you make out of a grain…Potatoes are used for a lot of, in a lot of places cause it is what they have a lot of. But it’s just anything that you’ve distilled up to above 95 or as high as you can go and then you water it down to drinkable 40%. So you’re trying to get rid of as many impurities as you possibly can and make it as neutral as you can. That’s vodka.
Margaret
Okay. Alright. Then what’s whiskey?
Shane
You’re pretty much on the money when you say it’s just distilled beer. You wouldn’t want to put hops in it because it won’t taste very good. And you don’t need to preserve it anyway. But it’s any anything that’s…any distilled, fermented grain. So, whether it’s corn, or wheat, barley, whatever.
Margaret
Is there like a secret distillers only alcohol that you like can’t get in the store? I guess moonshine is this. Okay, well, what’s moonshine?
Shane
It depends. A lot of different people have different definitions. Like I read a thing about this on the home distillers forums–there’s a whole hobby forum for this–their way of saying is whatever you consider moonshine is moonshine, because it’s just any illegal alcohol. Traditionally, I think it’s just an unaged corn whiskey. So just fermented corn, basically, and then distilled.
Margaret
Okay. But like, okay, so, in my mind, there’s got to be like, a type of…Like, you know, if you like…People who grow food, often eat different kinds of foods that you can’t get in the store, right? Or, like, people are like, "Oh, there’s all these fruits that you don’t even know exist," you know, because you go to the store and there’s like only certain things. Is there like a hidden liquor? Is there like a distillers’ liquor that–I mean, I guess moonshine is the closest to this–but like…
Shane
Well, probably the only one and it’s more for because it’s cheaper than anything but Sugar Shine. No one…like big companies aren’t making sugar sugar washes mostly because, at that scale, grains are cheaper and sugar. But yeah, Sugar Shine is probably the closest thing to a secret distillers only. So it’s like I said, that’s when you take a sugar wash, you just fill it out. And it can be kind of good. It. It tastes like a sugar bowl smells. Does that make sense?
Margaret
It seems like it’d make a good mixed.
Shane
Yeah, oh, yeah. It’s basically a vodka at that point. If you’re doing it right.
Margaret
Is there an overlap or like a hatred between the groups of hobby distillers and the people who are really into like mixed drinks?
Shane
No. Mostly because anything you…Anything that comes out of a home still, you’re probably mixing into a mixed drink anyway.
Margaret
Yeah, okay.
Shane
It’s not…my long term goal is to make something that is good enough to sip neat, like to sip just no ice, just out of a glass. I haven’t gotten there yet.
Margaret
Alright. How…the stuff that you’re making, how headachy, hangovery, blackoutty? Are you doing like pretty good on that level.
Shane
I’m doing pretty….It’s no worse than the commercial stuff, for sure. There’s a couple things that aren’t exactly distillers only, but they’re less common for people who aren’t alcohol nerds. One of them is absinthe.
Margaret
Yeah, okay, what’s absinthe made out of? I know there’s a wormwood in it. That’s all I know.
Shane
So absinthe is…So it’s a neutral spirit. You mix some wormwood and anise, usually, some other herbs and stuff in it. And you then you distill it again after it’s been soaking in that for a day or so. And then you color it with more wormwood or fennel or something to give it a green color, or you can just leave a white if you want.
Margaret
Alright. My other question is, how much work is it? Like how much like raw stuff to make a little bit…Like you mentioned that people distill maybe flower essences or some other essential oils. Is that what you said?
Shane
Yeah.
Margaret
I know that essential oils are an incredibly like…like, you got to grow a field of lavender in order to make a vial of lavender essential oils, right?
Shane
Essential oils is a very different process that I haven’t gotten super into. But from my understanding of it, you’re really just using your still to boil water at that point. You’re using the steam to extract the oils. So that you’re getting a very little product, I imagine. For alcohol, if you make a standard batch that you would make for like a beer or wine like a 23 liter, or I think 6 gallon, you’re probably gonna get two or three bottles, like standard sized bottles out of that.
Margaret
Oh, well, the standard like…
Shane
Like 750 milliliter bottles.
Margaret
Okay. So you can either have 24 beers or 2 bottles of liquor?
Shane
Yeah, basically. And that also depends on how strict you are when you’re taking your cuts and stuff. And whether or not you’re taking the cuts…Oh, one thing you can do with the cuts, by the way, I forgot to mention this earlier, if you’re doing a pot still, you can take that and put it into the next batch to get a little bit more of the good stuff out of it. So you’re gonna increase your yield as you go, basically.
Margaret
And if you make whiskey…if you make like flavored alcohols, can you still use them as fuel alcohol? Or is it like, not so good?
Shane
As long as you don’t water it down. Yeah, sure. I think you want to keep your alcohol above 75% if you’re using it for fuel. But if you’re just…if you’re drinking it, you probably don’t want it to be 75%, in general.
Margaret
And how do you measure the alcoholness, the gravity? Is it still the same, you still use a hydrometer, or whatever, even though it’s like super alcoholly?
Shane
You have to get a different hydrometer. It is the same thing. But you have to get a hydrometer that’s made for measuring proof. And this hydrometer will not work in your beer. You can’t proof out your beer using this because there’s particulates in the beer that will affect your measurement. But if you’re putting it in a spirit, that’ll work.
Margaret
I, every now and then, get really annoyed at living in the United States. And this is one of those moments. I’m like, this sounds fun. It just doesn’t sound cost-benefit fun.
Shane
Yeah, so I do enjoy the cheap alcohol aspect of this. But only if I don’t think about how much time I spend on it.
Margaret
Oh, yeah, no, totally.
Shane
It takes like an entire day to run the still. It’s just like an eight hour day.
Margaret
To get your like two bottles?
Shane
Yeah. So, it’s not not even worth it from that point. But, it’s a hobby, not a not a job. So that’s why if they ever come accuse me of selling alcohol, I’ll just show them the math. It’s not worth it.
Margaret
Okay, now, is it fuel efficient, right? Like if you…I know that you shouldn’t do it over and open flame, but it’s the apocalypse and you have to. Do you have to spend…Do you have to burn more fuel alcohol to make…Like, do you get a net gain of fuel alcohol? Or do you get a net loss of fuel alcohol?
Shane
I’ve never tried to run it over and open flame, so I don’t know.
Margaret
Yeah, don’t do it. I’m just curious.
Shane
I will say, it does take a fair bit of power. So I don’t know if you’d actually get a…like, back in the day, they used to do it over like a wood fire. I imagine probably because they probably don’t want to take their moonshine and pour that in a big bucket and light that on fire to use that instead.
Margaret
Yeah, that makes sense. I guess there’s other things that people like to burn more than…okay. I think that like answers most of my questions about distillation. Is there something amazing that I’m missing or anything that you like?
Shane
Do you want to give people some more practical information on like, where they can…Where or how they can get this stuff if it’s legal in the area?
Margaret
Yeah.
Shane
I’ve done a little bit of, I’ve pulled up a few things on this. So, one of the common things that people will get is a still from Still Spirits called a Turbo 500. It’s like a somewhat modular, cheap ish–It’s like $550–still. It’s kind of an all on one set. You just kind of plug it in and go. For the most part. You gotta have water running through it, but if you’re trying to…
Margaret
Oh, it’s electric?
Shane
Yeah, it’s electric.
Margaret
So you don’t have to like put it on a stove. That makes so much sense and it never occurred to me when you were like, "Oh, you don’t have to put it over open flame anymore." I was imagining putting it on my like electric stove top. No, great. Okay.
Shane
Oh, I have done that with my first still. It’s a little bit of a pain in the ass. I wouldn’t recommend it. It’s a bit fiddly on a typical coil stove because you got to balance everything on top of the little coil.
Margaret
Yeah. Okay, so anyway, so Turbo 500…
Shane
Yeah, so that’s a fairly common model. It’s under $1,000. If you live in an apartment and you just want to have the ability to do this, should it ever come up, if you need some sanitizer or just want to make a small amount of vodka, or if you want to use it for its intended advertised purpose and purify water, you can get a air still for under 100 bucks, usually.
Margaret
What’s an air still?
Shane
So you don’t even need water for this. You put…I’ll actually describe what you’re supposed to do with it. You fill it with water, your tap water. You plug it in, it’ll boil that water, and it’ll use a fan and an air cooler on the top to condense that back into water. So, it will distill water. And it’ll do the exact same thing to alcohol if you let it.
Margaret
Okay, if you use it against its intended purposes, like if you were to use a bong to smoke weed instead of tobacco…
Shane
Exactly. So yeah. Now, some people don’t like them because there’s a lot of plastics in making them and people are iffy about having alcohol vapor touch plastic. Understandably. Yeah, but, you know, if you just want to…if you’re making hand sanitizer or fuel, it’s a great option to have. Like it fits under your counter. It’s the size of a coffee maker.
Margaret
Okay, and you can put, "For tobacco use only," on it, and then people will…
Shane
Yeah. And then people will try to put tobacco in your air still and be really confused. [Laughing] Okay, so that’s…and then the option that if you’re getting really into fermenting, you’re probably going to end up getting at some point, an all-in-one grain brewing system is what they’re called. So it’s…Have you ever seen those like big coffee carafes they have at like churches and like food banks and stuff or soup kitchens and stuff. Like the big cylinder, stainless steel cylinder for coffee?
Margaret
Yeah. Like it looks like one of those robots from Doctor Who. It looks like a Dalek.
Shane
Kind of, yeah. Okay. The T-500 is also very similar to that, but it looks like one of those. It comes with like a filter and stuff to filter out your grains from your beer before you turn it into beer. And a lot of the companies that make those will include little clamps on the side so that if you wanted to, you could go buy, whether it’s a T-500 condenser, so you could buy the condenser separate or make your own condenser, you can slap it on top of that, clamp it down, and now you have a still. So that’s actually…If you’re getting really into fermenting, I’d recommend you get one of those anyway, because if you’re going to be doing any beer, any grains, you’re gonna want to have that. And if you ever decide you want to make a still, you’ve already got your boiler. Those can be a bit expensive, but I think they’re worth it. Especially if you’re making a lot of beer.
Margaret
Yeah. Yeah, I mean, every hobby starts at the $100 level, and then immediately goes to the $3,000 level, once you want to do it well enough, you know,
Shane
You can get these all grain brewing systems for less than $1000 as well. And also, if you want to make whiskey, you’re going to be working with grains anyway. So it’s this exact same sort of thing. You’re making a beer up until the point where you put hops in.
Margaret
Okay. Is the Turbo 500, is that what you use?
Shane
No, I went over the route of getting the grain brewing system. Initially, I went the route of getting the cheapest still Amazon had, hating it, modifying it, throwing all that away, and getting what I just mentioned.
Margaret
Yeah, that’s how I would do it too.
Shane
I got a couple of neat things out of the stove top still, but I eventually wanted to get something a bit bigger and a bit safer. So yeah, I went that route.
Margaret
Yeah, imagine. Are the cheap ones just like are they just like pressure cookers with some like copper coming out of the top?
Shane
They’re essentially just pressure cooker stills with a coil and a–like the coil condenser that I mentioned I hate them–so my first modification was getting rid of that and replacing it with the Liebig condenser. So I made my own Liebig and it worked, but it wasn’t…I had to tie it to my cupboard to keep it from falling over.
Margaret
So it’s kind of…There’s only one real object that people need. I mean, there’s like ways to do it modularly, right, but there’s not like a lot of different little…
Margaret
Well, there’s also, importantly, two different types of stills.
Margaret
The reflux and the pot.
Shane
Yeah, the reflux in the pot. So I’ve been talking a lot about pot stills. The T-500 is a reflux still, although you can modify it to be a pot still if you want. And you can also get some cheap modular reflux stills, which is what I got to put on top of my grain brewing system. If you want to make vodka, if you want to make something that tastes very neutral, or if you want to make something that’s a very high percentage, you need to reflect still.
Margaret
Oh, interesting. Because it’s, kind of re…It’s like multi…It’s doing like almost like multiple passes of a distillation at once, basically?
Shane
Exactly, yeah. So, you could sit there all week and just run your product through a pot still 20 times or you can put it in a reflux still, once. Yeah, that sounds better. Okay. It’s also safer, because I don’t know exactly why this is the case. But the hobby communities rule of thumb is nothing more than 40% in the pot. Okay, so the highest you’re gonna get out of that is around 70 or 80%. Which is
Margaret
Yeah, that sounds better. Okay.
Shane
It’s also safer, because…I don’t know exactly why this is the case, but the hobby communities rule of thumb is, "Nothing more than 40% in the pot." So the highest you’re gonna get out of that is around 70 or 80%.
Margaret
Which is higher than I normally imagine wanting alcohol anyway. Like, I’d be watering down anything over 50% anyway, personally, but…
Shane
But if you want to make gin or absinthe or anything that starts with a neutral, or a vodka, for example, you’re going to want to go up as high as you possibly can, which the highest you can go is about 95. Because the higher the higher you go, the less flavor you’re getting out of it.
Margaret
Yeah. Which actually…It’s suddenly making me think of Everclear. And like, the reason that I keep Everclear in my house is for like preservation and like herbs and tinctures and stuff, you know, which is something that I hadn’t even…We didn’t…Maybe you mentioned it in the list of things, but I’m only just now thinking of is like one of the other reasons that it’d be really useful for people to have access to make alcohol.
Shane
That’s actually the reason I got it. Where I am, I actually can’t buy Everclear because, you know, to protect us, I guess.
Margaret
Half the states are the same way.
Shane
But the thing is, I wanted to make orange liquor, is one of the first reasons, first things I thought of when I got into this. I wanted to make orange liquor, but I couldn’t find Everclear Yeah, so I had to make my own.
Margaret
That’s cool. That seems like that would be even more rewarding. Like I feel like trying to like learn how to make like a signature whiskey would be like fun, right? But what seems rewarding is making some 95% proof stuff that you can use as a mixer, or use to preserve things, and make medicine, and make things last a long time. But I’m also obsessed with making things last a long time.
Shane
And you can make sanitizer and medicine and stuff like that with what comes out of a pot still, but it’s gonna be more effective…Well, it’s gonna smell less bad on your hands, I guess, if you’re making hand sanitizer, but you actually do want to water it down to 70 anyway, so…
Margaret
Oh, interesting. Yeah, and is making hand sanitizer basically just make 70% alcohol and then you like put that on your hands? Or is it like…are you using like…Do you like gel it up? Like, what do you do?
Shane
I mean, if you’re just trying to get something, get some cheap sanitizer, yeah, you just make 70 or 80% alcohol and put it on your hands. You could mix aloe vera or lotion or something in there to make it, you know, less harsh, but…
Margaret
Okay. Well, is there any any last thing we’re missing? Or a question that I should have asked you?
Shane
I don’t think so. The last detail I wanted to get in there was make sure you don’t try to use 100% or 95% alcohol sanitizer, because it doesn’t work as well. I think a lot of people learned that around Covid, though.
Margaret
Okay, and then one weird thing I know about hand sanitizer is that hand sanitizer is very good for certain things. But if you live off grid and you put it in your outhouse or whatever, it doesn’t do any good there. Hand sanitizer is effective for…My doctor friend will be mad at me if I don’t get this exactly right. It’s not good for the fecal oral transmission route. It is good for like stopping colds and stuff.
Shane
Now, I didn’t know that because when I go camping, every outhouse I see has hand sanitizer in it.
Margaret
Oh, yeah. And you know what? It’s great. It stops other stuff that is unrelated to what you just did. A good thing to have.
Shane
A false sense of security there, I guess.
Margaret
Yeah, exactly. And you know, and if you have other safety practices in place for your off grid bathroom then you should be good in terms of distance from your kitchen. But more importantly, like, if–this is completely just a PSA–if you’re setting up some kind of like outhouse space for a lot of people and your camping or whatever, you’re going to want to set up a hand wash station that use soap and water because that is what stops transmission of things along the fecal oral route. And I don’t remember what the thing that, the word for what hand sanitizer does is, but I think it’s the breathey-iny-type stuff is what hand sanitizer is good for. I hope I got that right. And if not, do your own research. Don’t listen to some girl on the internet who’s interested in everything and not good at any of it.
Shane
Also, one last note. The same for this stuff. Don’t listen to this podcast and then immediately buy a still. There is a lot of information, like hobby information online. There’s the Home Distillers Forum. There’s a couple of Youtubers that make content about this. So get your information from more than one place.
Margaret
Well, is there anything you want to shout out or plug either something that you do or something that you want other people to pay attention to here at the end?
Shane
Beyond what I just said, No. I don’t really want to be found. So, don’t have anything to plug. I just wanted to make this information available to people.
Margaret
Well, I really appreciate it. And thanks so much for reaching out. And thanks for coming on.
Margaret
Thanks so much for listening. I hope you enjoyed this episode, if you didn’t, why did you keep listening? Was it that you set it on in the background and then went about your day and have been like sort of angry the whole time that you’ve been walking your dog or driving that you’re still listening to it and you wish you’d been listening to something else? If so, don’t tell me about it. But if you did like listening to it, you should tell other people about it. You should tell people, "Live like the world is dying!" and then people will be like, "What?" And you’ll be like, "Sorry, it’s the name of a podcast I like. Don’t actually do anything different about the fact that the world’s ending. Just go about living your life," and then people will be like, "You’re exactly the kind of reason that we don’t like listening to doom say…" Okay, so if you like this podcast, you can support it by telling people about it. That’s the single biggest thing that you can do. You can also support it by supporting us financially on Patreon. Our Patreon is patreon.com/strangersinatangledwilderness, because this podcast is put out by Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness, which is an anarchist publishing collective that puts out podcasts as well as books, and zines, and a bunch of stuff. And we’ve been around for almost 20 years. We haven’t been doing podcasts that whole time, because there weren’t podcasts when we started. Instead, it was mostly zines for a while. But in particular, I want to thank, first and foremost and always, Hoss the Dog. And I want to thank Michaiah, Chris, Sam, Kirk, Eleanor, Jenipher, Staro, Cat J., Chelsea, Dana, David, Nicole, Mikki, Paige, SJ, Shawn, Hunter, theo, Boise Mutual Aid, Milica, Paparouna, Aly, Paige, Janice & Odell, Oxalis, Jans, Funder, Anonymous–names are getting really interesting more recently–BenBen, Princess Miranda, Trixter, and Lord Harken. Sorry, just a silly way to pronounce that. I think. All right. I’ll talk to you soon. I’m gonna go eat fucking dinner because I’ve been recording all day. Jesus. Which was months ago now by the time you’re listening to this. Why are you still listening to this? You should hit stop. There’s not any like big secrets that I’m going to reveal if you keep listening. I’m just going to tell you what I ate for a snack, which was that I air fried some frozen potatoes and thought to myself, "I wonder if I can make my own frozen potatoes. I wonder if that’s what I can do with old potatoes before they go bad, if I don’t eat them in time. I wonder if I can cut them up into little shoestring fries and put them in a freezer bag and then put them in the deep freezer and eat them later?" Are you still listening? Bye.
This week on Live Like the World is Dying, Pat talks to Margaret about working outside for a living with the National Park Service. They talk about gear, preparedness while hiking, search and rescue, how to prevent needing to be sought for and rescued, and the unfortunate realities of climate change.
Guest Info
Find Pat on the trails. Do not find them on the internet. They cannot be found there.
Live Like the World is Dying: Pat on Working Outside
Margaret 00:14
Hello and welcome to Live Like the World is Dying, your podcast for what feels like the end times. I’m your host today, Margaret Killjoy. And this week…Okay, so you know sometimes I have these shows and it’s basically like I find people who talk to me about the things that I’ve decided I’m really interested in that week. Well, this is one of those examples! And so I’m really excited about it. I think you’ll all be excited about it too because this week I am talking to Pat who works outside for a living and he gets to do search and rescue and help people access parks because he is a backwoods…person…at a national park. And yeah, I don’t know, I think…I’m excited for the conversation. I can’t tell you what’s gonna be in it because I haven’t done it yet because I record these before I do the interview instead of afterwards. But! This podcast is a proud member of the Channel Zero Network of anarchist podcasts and here’s a jingle from another show on the network. Baba Baba bu ba baa ba ba baaa. [Making noises like a song melody]
Margaret 01:51
Okay, and we’re back. Pat, so if you could introduce yourself with your name, your pronouns, and then just like a little bit about the work you do?
Pat 02:02
Yeah. So I’m Pat. He/him. I am a back country ranger for the National Park Service and I’ve been doing it for about 10 years. So I basically just hike around to talk with people, help out with search and rescue, clean toilets, do whatever needs doing. Yeah.
Margaret 02:24
Hell yeah. Okay, I have one question up front.
Pat 02:26
Yes.
Margaret 02:27
Okay, once when I was doing this forest campaign in a national forest–so not the Park Service, but, you know, the National Forest Service–there was this pit toilet. And–because he brought up toilets–there was this pit toilet and it had a door. And we would prop the door open to avoid it smelling. But then the Ranger came by and yelled at us and says that it works better…The like ventilation system is built on the door being closed. But then other times, I feel like I’ve seen ones that say, "Leave the door open." What’s the deal?
Pat 03:00
That is…I’m going to chalk it up to every toilet in the back country is different. So maybe one of them was like designed in such a way with specific ventilation systems, because they get pretty high tech. We have some that have like little solar powered computer fans that will like vent air out and bring fresh air in to try to dry them out. It’s kind of neat. It’s a huge part of the job.
Margaret 03:25
This was like 20 years ago I think…Probably didn’t have a solar panel
Pat 03:27
Probably not solar powered then. [At the same time as Margaret says above
Margaret 03:28
I just couldn’t figure out whether she was like fucking with us because she didn’t like us or whether she was just like annoyed at these idiots who thought they knew about the woods but didn’t.
Pat 03:41
Well, the reason they gave may have not been like 100% accurate. Like one thing that comes to mind is–it really sucks–but you know, critters find their way down into there. And so if the door’s open like, you know, a raccoon or something may climb down there and like it really sucks because oftentimes they get down there and they can’t get out. And you know, at my park, we shovel all of that waste out into buckets and hike it out. [Margaret makes a "pee-yew" noise of disgust] And sometimes you know little chipmunks and stuff are in there. It’s really sad.
Margaret 04:12
Yeah, Is there like a back entrance where you can go down and access the pit? Or do you have to just literally like drop buckets and like it’s a terrible well?
Pat 04:24
Oh, no, those structures are literally just…like you just you just like rock them and move the wooden structures off. They’re not secured to the ground. and then you put a hole in the ground with just like posthole diggers.
Margaret 04:44
That’s fun. I’m glad that this is the first question I asked you. [Laughing]
Pat 04:48
It’s part of the job. Sorry, gonna turn all the listeners away.
Margaret 04:52
No, no, no, no, I asked. And I think that that’s like….Okay, I mean, that even gets kind of…Um, when I would do any kind of forest defense or anything that involves living in the woods, I feel like one of the main signs of like a newbie in a bad way was people who didn’t dig a hole before they took a shit.
Pat 04:53
Yes.
Margaret 04:54
You know? And so the stuff that when you’re like in houses and stuff that you sort of take for granted, you can’t take for granted when you’re not. So it sort of makes sense that shit is the defining characteristic.
Pat 05:28
Yeah, it’s kind of fun.
Margaret 05:29
But, speaking of shitty jobs…Hehe, I had to make the pun at least once. I’m very sorry. What got you deciding that you want to work outside?
Pat 05:41
I feel like I was kind of like destined for it. Kind of a weird way to put it. I was basically…my first backpacking trip was before I could walk. My dad put me on his shoulders. And I was out in the woods when I still in diapers. I grew up doing Boy Scouts so I was backpacking basically once a month. And so I just continuously did that essentially my whole life, and then, weirdly enough, in college kind of fell off for a bit. And then, you know, I graduated and decided to volunteer and have been doing it ever since.
Margaret 06:17
Okay, and you moved from volunteer to now this is what you do professionally, right?
Pat 06:20
Yeah, that’s kind of the primary path to get in. If you’re not coming from some sort of military background or something, you kind of have to volunteer or do an internship or something like that. It’s a pretty small community. So getting your foot in the door and learning the lingo is kind of important. And having a name that a hiring manager can call for a reference check that’s like in the system is kind of an important deal.
Margaret 06:49
That makes sense.
Pat 06:50
Yeah. Kind of a small community.
Margaret 06:53
What do you like about it? Like, I think that a lot of people listening…So the reason I wanted to had you on, part of it is about search and rescue stuff–which I want to talk to you about in a bit–But part of why I wanted to have you on is I think that a lot of the listeners, a lot of listeners do either work outside or spend…Like I actually work inside, but almost all of my hobbies–and I make it this way on purpose–take me outside. And then I often sort of live outside. I don’t currently, but I have at various points. But I think that a lot of people are looking for ways to get outside and don’t like their current work or don’t have work at all or whatever. And so I guess I want to ask you about what you like and don’t like about having a job that has you outside all the time?
Pat 07:43
Yeah. I mean, it’s…I love that my job like requires me to be out there. It’s like such a huge boost for mental health and everything. It’s nice that I don’t have to, like take time off for my family to go out and get those experiences. So that’s really huge. Yeah, the outdoors is like a…I’m sure a lot of people that go out regularly have the experience where it’s…even if you’re not religious or anything but it’s kind of got a spiritual element to it where you’re just like out in it in the wilderness by yourself or even with a small group, and it’s just refreshing, you know. It fills you up. So that’s huge that I get to do that and I get paid for it and I get to–I think most of all–I get to help people get out to get into it, pointing out trails, conditions, things that. Yeah, it’s really cool to have a job where I can, like materially help people on a day to day basis, you know? Like when I recommend a day hike and someone comes back like all sweaty but smiling and thanks you for it. You know, it’s a good feeling.
Margaret 08:52
Yeah, yeah. So you’re like the human Alltrails[.com]? Is that what you’re saying?
Pat 08:57
Yeah, I’ve got a little bit of a beef with Alltrails. But that’s maybe another conversation.
Margaret 09:04
Wait, I want to hear because I’ve been using Alltrails
Pat 09:07
I, and maybe this is just me, but I dislike how Alltrails chunks everything down into like little specific trails. So like, people come in and ask about like this one trail and it’s got a name that I’ve never heard of and I’m like, "Oh, you’re talking about like this section of the trail going up to here." Like, I’m much more like destination based. But that’s just me, you know. People like it. And it’s really great for finding new stuff. You have the maps right there, which is really great. Although I don’t think it’s as robust of a GPS tool as some of the other apps. But yeah, it’s got some weird stuff with like…Some of the information isn’t always accurate. So don’t trust it 100% is what I’m getting at.
Margaret 09:54
Yeah, I have noticed that, that it never takes me to the right place to start a trail…
Pat 09:59
See.
Margaret 09:59
Which, i feel like it’s just trying to keep me honest. It’s trying to make sure I learned how to read maps right. Because it takes me to the wrong spot. But it doesn’t do it when I’m like in the backwoods as much, right? Like backwoods is an exaggeration of the kind of hikes I do. Okay, no, no, I mean, because one of the things that I almost dislike about it when I started using it is I’m like…It’s kind of like when I’m driving, and I used to drive without a GPS, and drive across the country and all that. And now I drive with a GPS and I know exactly how many minutes are left in my drive. It’s a little weird that I have brought that into my hiking life I admit. But, I do like that there have been a couple times where I’ve been hiking and I’m like, "I don’t know where this fucking trail is. Where the fuck am I?" And it’s been like, "You’re in the wrong place." And I’m like, "Thank God."
Pat 10:56
Yeah. Good job, mapping tool.
Margaret 11:01
Yeah, exactly.
Pat 11:03
It’s amazing now how the phones have replaced so many tools in my back country pack. You know, it’s like, my camera, it’s my GPS, it’s, you know, I listen to podcasts when I’m hike. It’s…Yeah, it’s kind of cool. Very Powerful.
Margaret 11:19
Yeah, no, I like it too. I used to hike around with an SLR [Big camera]. And I’m glad I don’t anymore.
Margaret 11:20
That’s a lot of weight. Yeah.
Margaret 11:32
Yeah. Okay, so how does it affect…You talked about like…One of the things that you said about working outdoors that actually seemed really interesting to me that seems really cool is that you don’t have to take time away from your family to do it because it is the thing…You’re combining the thing that you want to be doing and the thing you do for work. How else does it affect your life, working outside or even specifically working for the park service?
Pat 12:00
Yeah. So you know, I have a family. I have a wife and kid at home. So…but where I work is, you know, it’s a good couple hours away from where my wife and kid are. So it can be a little bit challenging at times. And I’m really lucky that I’ve got the situation that I do because my wife has a decent job with all the benefits and everything and I’m a seasonal employee. So I’m working May to October, and then I get like…and so in the winter months it’s kind of worked out where I’m able to be a stay at home dad and take care of my kiddo. Yeah, it’s pretty…It works out really well. And as she’s starting school, I’m just transitioning to homemaker, which is kind of working out pretty nicely. I just get to bake bread and do the laundry and all that fun stuff. It’s pretty great. Yeah, it’s a good setup. But in the summers, I ended up being away from my family. I go home on my weekends. But, you know, I spend four days at a time out here in the back country and in the office. And, you know, it kind of stinks, but I’m out in the woods and I get so much family time in the actual winter that it it kind of evens out. Yeah.
Margaret 13:17
No, I mean, it sounds like it has advantages over almost every office job. Like even though my parents came home every day, both of them worked easily 12 hour days most days. Yeah.
Pat 13:32
And my wife’s job allows her to travel in the summers. So they go and visit family. Like they’re off doing stuff. So you know, the couple months where they’re off doing those kinds of things, you know, it’s not terrible. It lets me go off and do my own thing on my days off. So it works out nicely.
Margaret 13:49
Yeah. What would you say for like…I’m obviously…I presume you can only speak specifically to the park service or whatever. But do you know much about like other outdoors jobs or like what kind of like…What would you say to someone who’s like thinking about working outdoors?
Pat 14:06
Yeah. So I’ve worked closely with some forest service stuff, forest service people. I shared an office with them for a couple of years. So, you don’t just have to work for the government to work in the outdoors. You know, there are a variety of jobs working for federal or state agencies. You know, there’s wildland fire. There’s jobs that take you outdoors if you’re interested in like biology. You know, there’s people that go out and survey frogs and that’s their whole…Their whole job is they spend the summers at alpine lakes just like doing frog surveys, which is pretty cool. But, there’s also some of the non government jobs,. You know, there’s guiding services. They’re the folks that take people up those mountains like Denali and Rainier. They’re private companies. That’s a job that you can get in there. And also–it’s not necessarily in the outdoors but adjacent to it–you know, all those national parks have concessions, you know, private companies that run the hotels and the shuttle services and all of that stuff. So you don’t even necessarily like have to be a park ranger to like work in Yosemite or something like that, you know? You can be like a line cook and still live in the valley and be able to go day hiking in those gorgeous places on your days off. So…
Margaret 15:30
Okay, so I actually first ran across you because I put out a call saying I’m interested in talking to people who work with search and rescue. And I had initially thought of–and I’ll probably interview some other people about this, and who knows what order they’ll come out, so maybe you’re hearing this after I’ve already put out some other ones–But I was originally thinking about volunteer search and rescue, right, and the the groups that do it in different regions, but you do search and rescue as part of your work. And I wanted to talk to you about that, about what search and rescue is like. And just to…the reason I got really interested in thinking about this was I was thinking a lot about how search and rescue is a form of mutual aid that our society puts together and how there’s been like–I guess every now and then people try and charge people for search and rescue services and then everyone gets really upset about it. This is like something I’m completely outside of. I just read articles every now yeah and then. So I kind of wanted to ask you about the field of search and rescue and your work with it. And what that’s…What’s been involved?
Pat 16:31
Yeah, um, I am kind of…you mentioned it, pretty lucky in the search and rescue world in that I get a paycheck for what I do. The Park Service is unique in that it’s part of like our enabling legislation to provide for the safety of our visitors. So most other places, it just goes to the county sheriff. That’s just the default, the County Sheriff. They don’t have the budget to have a paid search and rescue team. And there’s always, always always volunteers, people willing to step up to help. Which is, yeah, kind of amazing. And yeah, it’s pretty great. We don’t ever charge for anything. My park owns a helicopter and we don’t charge for pulling people out of places and lifting them everywhere. Yeah, it’s a pretty cool setup that we’re able to just purely help and not at all worry about money or anything like that. It’s pretty great. It’s interesting because you see it a lot just in everyday like back country interactions with, you know, non search and rescue personnel to where, you know, you get injured in the back country and complete strangers are going to help you no matter what. Like, you see someone on the trail, they will help you in pretty much any sort of issue you have. I do love that about that sort of wilderness aspect is that like, everyone helps each other. It’s kind of great.
Margaret 18:08
That is a…I think that’s a really important point. We had a guest recently who’s a wilderness guide in Arctic regions and how that work actually led him to understanding anarchism and non-hierarchical organizing was that realization of like, of some of the things that come up in the back country. And so this thing that you’re talking about, about how everyone helps you when you’re in the backwoods, I think about…Like, I’m a real weird looking person by most of society’s standards. And if I am in most…If I’m in the back country, if I am on a hike anywhere other than kind of like a weird city trail or something, no one looks at me weird. Everyone just like nods like they do everyone else. And it reminds me…[Interrupted]
Pat 19:02
Everyone says hello…
Margaret 19:02
Oh, go ahead.
Pat 19:03
I was just…Yeah, it’s amazing. People just say hi. They wave. It’s…You drive a dirt road and everyone waves. It’s interesting.
Margaret 19:12
Yeah. And it reminds me a little bit about what I hear about, and what I’ve had minor experiences of, of what happens in disaster, which is, you know, the main theme of the show, right? And I wonder whether it’s just because when we’re far away from civilization and like we…the alienation of society, or civilization, or whatever the fuck–I don’t know what we call this–but, you know, the alienation drifts away when we’re in these places that don’t have as many structures in place or like…What do you think it is? Why is it…If someone’s passed out in the street in a city, everyone walks by them, and it’s like, "Oh, that person didn’t take care of themselves. So fuck them." right?"
Pat 20:00
Yeah, it’s…You’re absolutely right. It’s an interesting phenomenon. I think it has something to do with when you’re away from that safety net of society, when you’re away from like, "Oh, an ambulance is just a 911 call away. Someone else will do it. Someone else has done it." When you’re out there and you’re…You know that, "Oh, I haven’t seen anyone in two hours and here’s this person who’s injured." You know that like you are the only one. I think that’s part of it. And also like maybe a sense of, "Well, I would want someone to help me in this situation." And I you know, when we’re in the woods we we see ourselves potentially in more risky situations. I don’t know. It is…
Margaret 20:48
No, that that bystander effect….Go Ahead.
Pat 20:50
No, I’m just, you know, it’s that or it’s just, you know, when you’re away from all of this modern everything we’ve built, people just are how they naturally are, which is helpful and kind.
Margaret 21:04
Yeah. And, and that’s what’s so interesting to me about it is that like because people talk about like–a lot of preppers, especially like the center-right preppers and things–will talk about backwoods skills as the most important prepping skills. And overall, I don’t think that that’s true. Although, I think backwoods skills are great and I’m personally trying to work on mine. But maybe it’s like, they’re getting the wrong things out of it, right? Like, I mean, it’s cool to know how to hit squirrels with axes and skin them or whatever. But knowing how…Like returning to this, "We take care of us" thing, returning to this sense of like, "We’re in this together," maybe that’s the more important backwoods skill.
Pat 21:52
Honestly, it’s wild. You have, you know, just the interaction you have when you’re just far enough away, where you’re not, you know, close enough to society. Everyone’s…everyone’s really friendly. Yeah, it makes my job really easy.
Margaret 22:16
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Yeah. I always have…Like, when I talk to park rangers of various types, they’re usually fairly happy and not like smiling because they have to for work.
Pat 22:28
Well, it’s like a customer service job at its core, but you’re talking with the crowd of people that are–like we were just talking about–gonna go out into the woods and say hi to every person they see. And they’re like, going off and they’re spending their free time to go do this. Like it’s a very specific crowd of people. And it’s very like, okay, yeah, it’s gonna be…[Audio distortion with missing words] Very rarely do I ever have difficult interactions with people.
Margaret 22:55
Yeah. So with search and rescue, I have a couple questions about it. Okay, one, the least…the most specific–sometimes I like to just ask the most specific question that’s on my mind. Which is, so I carry…like when I hike I carry a Garmin inReach Mini 2. I carry an SOS device and a satellite communicator, right. And it’s the most expensive thing on my fucking pack. It probably costs as much as the rest of my pack, but I like having it because I hike by myself. I hike by myself…well, with my dog. And this seems like overall a very good thing. I’m very glad I have it, but I keep wondering, especially like when compared with like smartwatches that can send SOS’s and like now phones can send an SOS, are you all like buried under fake SOS calls now?
Pat 23:46
So no. Not really. We haven’t…I feel like it’s just that like new iPhone I think that does that SOS, but I don’t think we have enough of those out there just yet to really see a lot of that. But, the inReach is our–my goodness–like gold standard. Those things it’s an absolute wonder how those streamline the search and rescue process and get people to the care that they need quick. Yeah, like there’s numerous situations I can think of off the top of my head where an individual would have potential…would likely have have died if they didn’t have an inReach. Yeah, that…I’m sold on those things. They’re just the absolute best. And there’s a different brands, not inReach specifically. There’s a couple other varieties, you know. I’m not here to sell Garmin products or anything, but anything that you can press a button and call 911 is huge.
Margaret 24:51
Right. They haven’t sent us one for free. Okay, yeah, it’s funny because ever since I bought the Garmin inReach I am on their like mailing list and so I get the like…like once a month they send a story of like, "This man survived because he…on a ledge for six hours because of his Garmin inReach 2." Yeah. And it’s like clearly sales propaganda. But it’s also true in this case.
Pat 25:18
Just last year, we had an individual who was experiencing heat stroke, was getting like combative with the rescuers. They were in such a bad way. And if they had not had the inReach, they were like 15-20 miles from the nearest road. If they had not had that inReach for us to be able to get a helicopter there like quickly, it would have been a much different mission for us. So yeah, it’s…Yeah, those things are amazing.
Margaret 25:49
Yeah. So if you’re listening, Garmin, send us free ones to give to our listeners..
Pat 25:59
Garmin kind of stinks because you have to pay a fee, like the monthly whatever, in order to pay for it. Like the best…The only like real benefit it has over some of the other ones is that you can send messages. But the other ones, I think Spot is a simple one, you just buy once and you don’t have to pay things. You just like jam a button and it’s good. Also most boats have them, so if you have access to a sailboat, you could probably find one
Margaret 26:24
Okay, now that actually, that’s funny. I mean, one of the things, the only thing I’ve ever used my Garmin for, right is the text communication and the…So for anyone who’s listening, it’s a small device. It’s like, it looks like a miniature walkie talkie. It’s smaller than my cell phone, but it’s like chunky and it’s a satellite communicator. I pay a monthly fee. I think it’s like 10 bucks. You can pause it whenever you want. So, if you’re not gonna go anywhere for six months, you can stop. And it gives you like basically a phone number that you can text anywhere you can see the sky in the world. And then you’re paying, you know, 25 cents a text or I’m making that number up. I don’t remember how much money it is. It’s around that. And yeah, and so it gives you an SOS button, which calls for help and tells people where you are, or initiates communications with the responders. And it also just lets you…like it Bluetooths to your phone, or you can very slowly and annoyingly type on this like weird thing. It doesn’t have a touchscreen. And so, one of the reasons I actually do like that model is that like, I don’t want to interact with authorities unless I absolutely need to, right? And I absolutely will press the like "Please save my life button," right. But, there’s a lot more situations where it’s just like, "Oh, I’m gonna go be off grid for a week. It would be really nice to know…" Like, recently I was off camping in the backwoods. Well, not really the backwoods. I’m playing myself up. I was fucking…I was at Joshua Tree. I didn’t have cell service and my aunt was in the hospital and I just wanted to know if anything happened to her. And so it was nice to know that I was able to be reached.
Pat 28:20
Yeah. Yeah. And that’s, that’s huge. You know, I do a lot of solo travel too. And so it’s nice to be able to–just because you can send your track as well. So you can send like, "Oh, this here, you can follow me on the website." And so like, you can just send a link and initiate your tracking. Like, "I’m gonna go off trail and scramble up this little peek here. Like, go ahead and follow along." It’s kind of nice, nice reassuring, at least. But then you’re connecting with that outside world, which takes away that part of the wilderness a little bit.
Margaret 28:55
I know. I was gonna say that part of it. And I feel bad saying it, but like…
Pat 29:00
It’s true.
Margaret 29:01
Everywhere has cell service now and I’m like not always glad.
Pat 29:06
It’s nice when you can’t be…[Talking over each other]
Margaret 29:10
Okay, well…Go ahead.
Pat 29:11
I was just saying it’s nice when you can’t be reached.
Margaret 29:12
Yeah. For anyone who is listening is wondering why the conversation…We both have shitty internet. So there’s lag and that’s what you all are listening to. Which, is the fun thing about two people in a rural situation and trying to record a podcast together. And so okay. So you go and you do search and rescue and I have two questions about that. I have more questions about that. Garmin was my like weird specific one. What are people doing? What are the main takeaways that you’re learning that you see hikers or campers or all vehicle, all-terrain whatever…offroaders. Whatever. Like, what are people doing that puts them in these situations where they need rescue. Like what? What lessons can you impart to our audience from having seen people both live and die in bad situations in the woods.
Pat 30:05
I think the biggest thing…So it kind of depends on where we are. If we’re talking about like the close in day hiking trails, the folks that are just out for a vacation and like maybe doing a hike in flip flops. For that, we’re looking at a lot of the basic like, you know, the dehydration, twisted ankles, things like that. You know, people that don’t hike a lot are going out and suddenly doing a, what may be for them, a really strenuous hike. And so those sort of like, broken ankle dehydration, whatever medical issues, you know. Grandma doesn’t really hike and she’s suddenly climbing up some switchbacks and, you know, has some some sort of condition that that causes her to go down or something like that. So that’s what happens kind of in the front country. In the back country, when you’re like really a little bit deeper out into the wilderness, oftentimes, what gets people into the most trouble is they are overextending themselves. They are pushing past what they are really kind of capable of doing. Oftentimes, you get a lot of like the weekend warriors who maybe haven’t done a ton of hiking, who really decide like, "I want to do this one hike, because I saw it on Instagram. And I’ve got to do it because it looks really cool." And it’s way above where their skills are at. They maybe go on too hot of a day and they don’t have enough electrolytes. And so we still get a variety of, you know, the whole gambit of issues that can arise when you’re out in the back country. But usually, it all stems from pushing themselves beyond what they should do for their capabilities. Yeah, and then the occasional like, whoopsie daisies breaking an ankle.
Margaret 31:57
So it’s actually kind of the same thing as the front country?
Pat 32:00
Yeah, I mean, you’re right in a sense. I don’t…Yeah, it’s just more of…Yeah, you’re right. It ultimately comes down to just going beyond what you’re, you know, expecting yourself to go do more than what you’re actually able to do. Yeah.
Margaret 32:15
Yeah. Alright, so are the majority of things heat related and ankle related?
Pat 32:22
Oh, yeah, those are the two big examples. Those are honestly, kind of the most often are lower leg injuries, you just you step wrong, and you mess up an ankle, and then dehydration, and like heat illnesses. That’s like, probably a solid like 80% of what we see on a day-to-day basis. And those are all easily resolved. You know, they’re the quick in and out a couple hours and it’s done. Go in. Bring some electrolytes to someone. Bring them back up and you just walk out, make sure they’re okay. Or if it’s an ankle, quickly pop up there, and if they’re close enough, give them some crutches and help them get out. Get into a litter and wheel them out if you need to.
Margaret 33:06
Okay, so the reason that I’m like…the ankle thing. I watch way too much like hiking YouTube. I wear–just because I’m an old punk–I wear boots all day every day. I used to wear big stupid steel toed boots and hike in them. And now I wear like tactical boots because they have side zippers and they’re lighter. And I like them more. Not aesthetically, honestly but for my life. But but all the hikers I know are all obsessed with trail runners. And everyone is like, "No one actually rolls an ankle. What are you talking about?" But you’re telling me that people roll ankles?
Pat 33:45
Yeah. The people that roll ankles are usually in boots, surprisingly enough.
Margaret 33:51
Oh, shit. [Laughs a little manically]
Pat 33:53
Yeah. If you’re like using trail runners, oftentimes, you’re like strengthening your ankles and allowing that movement in your ankle, you know, because like the trail runners usually coincides with lighter pack weight as well. So, you have less weight, less risk. We’re able to actually like move with you rolling an ankle. So like, yeah, like I occasionally like step weird. My ankle twists. But like, I’m not locked into something where now all of my body weight is going to be over that. I can quickly adjust and like, be fine. But yeah, it’s usually the boots that you’re seeing the ankle injuries with. But like if it works for you, hike your own hike. I try not to judge people for their gear. But yeah, the trail runner cult is real and for good reason.
Margaret 34:45
Yeah, you’re a trail runner guy. Okay. Okay.
Pat 34:48
I only wear boots in snow.
Margaret 34:49
I mean, everyone I know who’s actually an outdoors person.
Pat 34:52
Yeah. That’s trail runners.
Margaret 34:55
Okay. Yeah, I mean, at least like, you know, I…my friend Carrot was on talking about ultralight hiking and thru-hiking and you can hear in that episode me slowly getting sold on light weight hiking. I’ve always been like a maximalist. Yeah. And then in my defense I’m like, well, I used to live out of a backpack. I like know all about carrying weight many many miles. I was 25 when I lived out of a backpack I am. There’s that meme from Aqua Teen Hunger Force, "I’m a full 30 or 40 years old and I don’t need this anymore." Yeah. Okay, okay.
Pat 35:44
Join the future.
Margaret 35:45
So you would overall suggest that lighter pack weight and trail runners might be a safer method than making sure that you carry everything that would be in a Dungeons and Dragons adventuring pack?
Pat 35:59
Yeah, um, honestly, you know, people aren’t used to usually carrying like 40 pounds on their back. Like, it’s not something humans normally do on a day-to-day basis. Like 20 is like not that much different. And most people can move pretty much the same way if they’ve got 20. But with 40, you’re like, you’re lumbering. Much more prone to the trips and falls and not being able to place your feet quickly and nicely. So…But, okay, ultimately, it’s, you know, there is a trade off of like you’re carrying less stuff, probably less robust stuff, you’re relying on doubling things up, multi-use stuff. So that’s kind of like…It’s a trade off.
Margaret 36:48
No, and that’s really interesting to me because like what we were talking about earlier about people taking care of each other in the backwoods, I was thinking about how camping and hiking and outdoor stuff, in a way, is like making a hobby out of a little apocalypse. You’re going somewhere where you can only rely on what’s around you, the people around you, and the stuff that you’ve brought, right. And so that leads me towards my like, vaguely maximalist…Like what I do now, is that like, my pack is a weird lightweight maximalism. I like still want…Like, I carry P-cord, right? And that’s like not in an ultralight hike pack. But, I’m also not throug-hhiking. So I’m kind of like, whatever.
Pat 37:39
Who cares?
Margaret 37:42
But I don’t carry like 50 foot of climb line, you know? And like, I’m not set to repel. I could repel in an emergency with my fucking p-cord. And it would be bad idea, but I would do it if I had to, right.
Pat 37:56
Terrifying.
Margaret 37:57
Yeah, no, I would double it up and then be terrified. Don’t do…No one should listen to me. That’s why I have experts on.
Pat 38:04
Don’t ever do that. [Laughing]
Margaret 38:07
Okay, got it. All right. Everyone makes sure to repel with P chord. If you’re not, you’re not ultralight. So. Okay, so I expected the answer to be like, "What goes wrong in the back country?" I expected it to be like, people aren’t prepared, right? Because I have this like, tendency to think like, "Preparedness!" and like… But what you’re saying is that it’s a different kind of prepared. People are overestimating their capacity rather than running into a problem that they don’t have the wand of magic missiles that can solve or whatever.
Pat 38:47
Most of the issues we see are not solved by some like gizmo that you carry. It’s usually like your preparedness, your like physical ability, things like that, you know. Some little tool in your pack, like for the most part isn’t going to prevent the issues that we see.
Margaret 39:10
Right? Yeah. But sometimes they’re fun. Like a walkie talkie.
Pat 39:15
Oh, yeah, they’re great.
Margaret 39:22
Okay, okay. So while we’re…Is most of what you’re doing like day-to-day hanging out at a back country office or the office of…What do you do in your day-to-day? I should just ask that.
Pat 39:39
So like about half of my days, I am behind the desk in the front country just chatting with people, pointing out day hikes. I issue permits for backpacking things like that. And I have my, I always got my SAR [Search and rescue] pack there ready in case something pops off that I can quickly go hustle up trail to help with. And then the other half of my time I am in the field, in the back country, hiking around, chatting with folks, making sure that they’re not feeding the bears, and I get the point out cool flowers and frogs to people. It’s pretty cool. Explore new routes. Try to find shortcuts into places for quick access for search and rescue teams. It’s a cool job.
Margaret 40:24
Does your back country pack include a full SAR setup?
Pat 40:29
It does. Yeah, so I…But a full SAR setup isn’t…I should correct that. It does not have a full SAR setup because I don’t carry a helmet with me when I’m in the back country. And whenever we’re on SAR, we’ve always got helmets.
Margaret 40:46
Like, like the Team Wendy Bump helmets?
Pat 40:48
Yeah, like climbing helmets because we’re often like, doing off trail stuff in the dark in weird weather and they were getting way too many search and rescue personnel getting like head injuries. And the last thing you want out there is to like bonk your head on a tree. You know, head injuries bleed a lot. They’re not usually scary, but like a cut on your forehead is like…looks scary. And so it’s just too much to deal with in the back country. So we got to wear helmets, even when we’re hiking for SAR. It’s kind of silly.
Margaret 41:20
So all hikers should wear helmets at all times. [Joking tone]
Pat 41:23
Yes, that’s what I’m saying.
Margaret 41:25
Cool. Maximalism, that’s what you’re here to promote. So, how heavy is your back country pack?
Pat 41:36
Yeah, um, I actually got it loaded up right here because I’m heading out after this. But it is…Right now. It’s probably about 25 pounds-ish. And that’s loaded for three days with overnight gear, food, extra SAR stuff. SAR stuff isn’t that much more in addition. It’s just a little bit more robust things. Like I carry a bunch of like hand warmers. I carry just extra radio batteries, a big heavy duty like tarp emergency blanket, and then just enough layers where I can like stand outside all night long and not need shelter. Other than that, eye pro, ear pro, gloves. [Eye and ear protection] Not much different that you really need. Any like specialized equipment is coming to you. Or you would start out from the trailhead with it.
Margaret 42:36
I see. So it’s not like you’re carrying the larger first-aid kit?
Pat 42:41
No, I mean, I’ve got a decent sized firstaid kit, but most of the time my first-aid kit is for me. And when I’m treating, when I’m helping someone, I’m using their first-aid kit, and I’ve got some extra stuff for like bigger injuries. But for the most part, I’m like if you’re injured on the trail, I’m finding your first-aid kit and I’m going through that first. So it there’s like a cool specialized band-aid that you like, make sure that you put that in your first-aid kit.
Margaret 43:15
Okay, everyone needs a full suture kit. And everyone needs at least three Sam splints. [Joking tone]
Pat 43:25
Sam splints are great, but they’re just so big.
Margaret 43:28
I know, they’re never in my pack and I always sort of wish it was, but it never is. It doesn’t…Even my maximalism doesn’t put my Sam split in my my pack, but I’m not like a medic.
Pat 43:41
It’s funny you mentioned that suture kit. I actually have a story about someone carrying a suture kit in the wilderness and it working out well.
Margaret 43:49
Oh, okay. [Surprised]
Pat 43:50
They…It was in Boy Scouts and we were out hiking and one of the adults with us was a dentist and like way maximalist over packed. He had like an 85 pound pack, but he had a full suture kit. And lo and behold, someone fell and like gashed their knee open like incredibly deep. It was like a big bleed. There he was, sewing right up on trail.
Margaret 44:13
Hell yeah.
Pat 44:14
it was pretty cool. But I don’t know if it was worth all of that extra weight. I mean, it was I guess but…
Margaret 44:21
Yeah. I am so…I love talking to people about this because I’m so torn between my…like I mean the main pack that I carry, I just go day hiking most of the time right now and car camping. Currently, I used to basically backpack for a…not a living, but you know I lived out of a backpack, right?
Pat 44:44
You’re a professional backpacker.
Margaret 44:47
Yeah. And now I just have like a day hiking pack and it has, you know, it probably has more stuff than I need, but I’m not pushing myself super hard on how long I’m hiking. I have a dog with me who provides a natural limit into how much I can hike. I can’t push myself too hard. I actually don’t go out too much in the summer, frankly, because my dog does not like the heat. He is a cold weather dog who loves the snow. I have bad news for him about the coming world. But, I am a little bit maximalist. And so I try. I’m trying so hard to pare it down. And it’s so hard. But okay. All right. So….Oh, I have so much more I want to ask you about SAR. Do you know much…Like do you all ever work with volunteers when you do SAR? Like, do you have like…Okay, so most of the SAR calls you get are like someone like calls in and it’s like, "I fell. My ankles fucked. I can’t walk home," and whether it’s someone on a switchback in the front country, or whether they’re 20 miles in or whatever, do you like? Like, how often is it? It was…I mean, I don’t know, it’s almost like…I mean I’m not going to put this in the title, so it’s not clickbait. But like, how often is it like, "Oh, shit, we have to get there in time, someone’s dying, or like, you find corpses or all the gnarly intense stuff?
Margaret 46:21
Okay. So, only hike with a helicopter. Bring a helicopter with you in your maximalist pack. [Dry joking]
Pat 46:21
Usually…usually every day, there’s something small happening. Small meaning like, "Oh, someone twisted their ankle a quarter mile trail from the visitor center." Every…it’s usually probably three or four every summer, big ones, that have a big outcome, like where it ropes in a lot of folks and ends up being a kind of a big incident. Usually at three or four. But they can also resolve incredibly quickly too. So you can have a major thing that is from the time of knowing about, it’s within an hour, it’s completely resolved. You know, if you have a helicopter around and someone’s like impaled with an ice axe or something like that, we can quickly get them out to a hospital like within an hour if we have if we have a rush. Yeah.
Pat 47:27
Yes. Bring a helicopter. [Dry joking]
Margaret 47:33
Okay, and then okay, so I want to ask–I guess I asked a version of this–but it’s like okay, so you’re mostly saying like, bring electrolytes and don’t push yourself too hard. Are there other things that people like get wrong or even sort of get right about about backpacking or about just like spending a bunch of time in the outdoors whether it’s day hikes or not?
Pat 47:56
Yeah, I think what people can get wrong is that like tunnel focus on the destination of like, "I have to get here because Alltrails says that’s a cool hike. And it says it’s moderate. So I have to do it." That’s the same light vein of thinking of like people pushing themselves. Where people get right is folks usually have like their ten essentials like people usually have like a backpack, and like a water bottle, and some way to treat water, or something like that. Most folks these days have like the navigation. They’ve got Alltrails on their phone. They’ve got ways to get away like get around. So we don’t see too many folks getting lost these days, at least in my current park, which is kind of nice.
Margaret 48:44
Yeah that’s cool. Because I only read…Like I read some article about how the ski slopes have like…Local cops near a ski slope have stopped responding to the like Apple Watch "This person fell."
Pat 49:00
Oh, gosh.
Margaret 49:01
Because there’s like something about skiing that sets it off on your watch or something, you know?
Pat 49:09
Wow.
Margaret 49:10
And so I like have mostly read about the like, here’s how technology is like, making some things like more complicated and worse, but it makes sense to me that…Yeah, I don’t know. It’s easy to…I don’t get lost anymore. My phone tells me where to go. I mean the closest I’ve come right as you you go hiking and you’re like, "Shit, I didn’t charge my phone enough," or like or I always assume that in my day pack, I have a spare battery. And then like one day I was like, "I apparently didn’t bring my battery in my pack," you know? So I died. No, I clearly didn’t. But no, it’s cool to hear that people are getting lost less. And even I think that that also even applies to the like outdoors as mini apocalypse type thing, is that it helps to like know that there’s certain…I mean, obviously we rely on certain technologies that may or may not work in different situations, right? Like if we’re entirely reliant on cell service and cell service is no longer available or whatever. I am trying to think of what the, what the other thing is…I feel like there’s…Okay, well, one, I want to ask you what water filter you use, what water treatment system you use?
Pat 50:34
I use a Sawyer. Sawyer Squeeze. Put it right on my little water bottle. I like literally have my pack right here.
Margaret 50:44
Yeah, no, I got really excited when you said that because I…I like, I make fun of how like preppers always, like, nerd out about gear. But it’s just impossible not to. If you get involved in a hobby, or an interest, at some point, you’re going to be like, "But what did you use?" Like, you know? So…But having a way to do it. Yeah, like Sawyer Squeeze…Sawyer is what I use when I lived off grid at the beginning of the pandemic and needed to filter all my water.
Pat 51:16
They’re great. They’re cheap. Can buy them in any outdoor store. Kind of nice.
Margaret 51:24
Yeah. All right. The sad question. Maybe the answer isn’t sad. How have you seen, working at one place for 10 years…I assume…Whatever. I think you’ve been there for 10 years.
Pat 51:36
I’ve worked in two different parks. But yeah, ten years.
Margaret 51:39
Okay. How has climate change affected? Like you see the outdoors every year? What’s been changing? And what are? What are people around you saying and thinking? Like, how seriously are people taking it? And what’s that?
Pat 51:58
Yeah, we all kind of collectively acknowledged that, especially like the group of seasonals that are like that I’m like working with, we all kind of acknowledge that, like, "Yeah, we get to be frontline watching these places go through the changes for, you know, climate change. We’re going to be like, documenting these in our patrol reports of like, how the snow melt is different from year to year and what the new normals are. And it’s kind of a weird, like, yeah, like, somebody’s got to document it. And so we’re, we’re here for that. And it’s yeah, it’s, it’s sad. It’s like a collective like, "Oh, shit, we’re gonna see this place, these places change. And we’re going to, we’re going to be documenting that, and recording that, and being that that data collection," at least from like, firsthand accounts, so…You know, it’s tough when we’re just, you know, we’re just little patrol Rangers. We don’t have really much power other than just communicating to people. That’s one of the things I like to talk about. And I like point out things on a map is like, "Oh, yeah, do you see this, like this glacier was here. And now it’s way up here. And it’s receding this much every year." Yeah. So we have that power to communicate with people. But it’s, it’s a tough part of the job. Let’s put it like that.
Margaret 53:25
Yeah, it…I don’t know. Climate grief is a….At some point we need and episode on climate grief. Because it’s something that like we all sort of avoid thinking about, even when you’re like doing preparedness. Like part of the point of doing preparedness, from my point of view is to like avoid thinking about like how things might go. What have been people’s responses, like, do you run across…Are most people….? Because if you hang out on Twitter, anytime someone says, "Hey, this is the hottest day ever. This is a problem." You have like 50 blue checkmarks, who may or may not be real people, being like, "Everything’s seasonal, you idiots." Like do you run across those people in like a 50/50 to regular….people who actually understand what’s happening.
Pat 54:11
No, the vast majority of people that I talk to about that stuff….First off, I’m talking usually to backpackers. So it’s usually like a certain crowd of people, and like National Park backpackers as well. There’s also like a selective crowd. And so most people are like acknowledge the reality of climate change and recognize like, "Oh my gosh, this is a changing landscape now." Occasionally, though, I get the person that is like, "Oh, climate change. That’s…These glaciers, they always grow and shrink. What are you talking about?" And it’s, it’s a delicate manner, you know, to talk my way out of that one because I’m in uniform and everything.
Margaret 54:58
Yeah, you don’t just like pull a gun and chase them out of the park? [Joking]
Pat 55:04
That’d be nice. I’d be like, "What are you doing here? Why are you here? Go away!" No, I have to be friendly and I don’t know, show them pictures of wherever glaciers used to be.
Margaret 55:16
No, that makes sense. No, it actually, I mean, I actually…I think if anything is gonna get us out of…Well obviously, there’s no stopping climate change, right? Like there’s mitigating the worst impacts, both in terms of the level of change and how that change affects us. But like, we’re well past the like…We’re like, actually in it now. You know? But I do think still that like getting people…Like changing people’s minds, it still actually matters. And it’s still actually…You know, there’s this counter inflammation program that’s designed to destroy the fucking Earth and we have to counter it. And okay, but I have a non climate change related question. And it’s the last one I have on my list and then I’m gonna ask you if you have anything that I should have been asking you. What can folks…You deal with a lot of different people coming in, and you talked about different people overestimating their levels of ability and stuff. And sometimes, when I run across like outdoorsy stuff, there’s like this macho culture of like, who can do the most vertical feet? And who can, you know, walk the furthest in the worst climate? It’s actually almost cool that the weird macho thing about gear is to have us be lighter instead of heavier. But..which is the opposite of what I what I would expect it, you know? But, how can people of different levels of ability…like one of the things I like about…We didn’t really talk about the problems at the Park Service. I think that that’s just a thing?
Pat 57:06
That’s a whole conversation.
Margaret 57:11
Right? You know, the Park Service comes from a very bad place. And so does all of the United States, right? And…
Pat 57:19
Yes.
Margaret 57:19
You know, like, you talked earlier about like private versus public. And, you know, and it’s like, is giving yuppies a safe taste of the wilderness for a private company like more ethical than working for the federal government? I don’t actually think so. I think everyone has to do different things in order to survive. But…Well, actually, I guess I’m now bringing that up. If you have anything you want to say about that we could talk about. You don’t have to.
Pat 57:38
I don’t mind. Yeah, it’s it’s tough. You know, I love these places. It’s not my land, though. You know, I’m on indigenous land. This is where I work. And it’s, it is a tough aspect to kind of try to reconcile because I love my job. And these, I’m happy these places are protected. But also, like, I don’t know, if…Like, you know, I’m white. Like, I don’t know, if I should be the person in the back country telling people not to step on the wildflowers, you know? I’ll do it because the job is there. And honestly, I couldn’t imagine doing something else. But if that land got returned to the indigenous tribes, tomorrow, I would be all for it. You know, it’s, it’s at the edge. It’s a tough one to reconcile. And they’re starting to make moves. You know, just the other day, got to go through all of our little laminated maps and sharpie out one of the names for a lake because it used to be a really offensive name for Indigenous women. And now, it’s not that anymore. It’s like a local indigenous word for grandmother. And it’s like, "Wonderful! I get to cross this out and write in the new name on this map." Like, that’s fun. But also, you know, it’s still not the tribe’s land anymore. So, I don’t know. It’s tough.
Margaret 57:44
No, it makes sense. And I mean, when I think about the National Park Service, I think about a lot of really negative things and then I also think about how like as when I was doing forest defense, the National Forest Service is part of the Department of Agriculture and national forests exist federally not to be protected but to be harvested. And any like people use, or nature use that–and people are nature but you know–that comes along the way is like a byproduct.
Pat 59:05
Yeah.
Margaret 59:09
You know? And yeah, that’s the…It’s weird because the park services are like, parts of them and more some of them more than others, are like theme park for nature. And there’s like all kinds of complicated things. But it’s also like…I remember at one point, I was in Yosemite, and I was like on a raised walkway to go see some falls. And I’m like, "You know, it fucking rules that these falls are wheelchair accessible." Like, that’s cool. And it’s interesting to me that there are people working to try and figure out how to balance, access and preservation. And so even though it comes from the….I don’t know, whatever. I’m not trying to be like, "The park service is great," right? But it’s just like, it’s fucking complicated.
Pat 1:00:44
Yeah, exactly. It’s, you know, you make the parks really accessible and then that degrades the quality of the resource in the that solitude in that wilderness aspects if there’s a parking lot with 1000 cars, or you know, 200 people on the trail. But also, like, it’s great that people can get out to these places. That is the…Yeah, give a park ranger a beer and ask them, "How do you balance access versus preservation?" and that’s a that’s a whole podcast series right there.
Margaret 1:01:18
Yeah, no, I would totally listen to a podcast series that both talks about the weird fucked up place that the parks come from, and like the way that they do all this bad stuff, but then also, they’re complicated, like…I remember being in a national park run cave and this little kid was like, "Why can’t we go in that part of the cave?" And the Ranger was like, "Because there’s a bat sleeping." And the kid was like, "Well, what if I want to go in anyway?" And the Ranger looks at this like little kid and is like, "If it’s between you and the bat, the bat gets the cave and you don’t." Like, watching the entitlement strip away from this little kid’s eyes and I’m like, yeah…I don’t know. Well, okay, and this actually gets into the thing that I was going to ask as my question, which is, um, what can people different levels of ability do? Right? If you try to get involved in, in, not necessarily working outdoors but like, engaging with the outdoors and you’re not like, totally able to just immediately–I mean, I can’t fucking hike like I used to. I’m not trying to fucking go…Like, I walk seven miles and up 2000 feet, and I’m like, "I am fucking done." And my dog is like, "We are done." You know? But like, what can people do? Like…how make more accessible?
Pat 1:02:44
The best way to really get started if you don’t have that experience and really want to avoid that pitfall of like, "I’m going to do this hike because I saw a guide book that says I should do this hike. So I’ve got to do it." It’s just be completely flexible with not getting to whatever the destination of the hike is, you know? Choose something small to start off with, you know, and only do a couple miles, and set a time to like turn around. Say like, "I want to hike for two hours and turn around in one hour," regardless of if you get to the destination or not. And really try to change your mindset from the point of the hike being to get to the viewpoint or to get to the cool cave or whatever, to being the point of the hike is to like stop and see the little things along the way. Some of favorite days are like cloudy, rainy days because I’m not looking for views on those days. I’m like, focused down on like how the rain and the water makes the moss look different or changes the coloration of the wood grain and things like that. You know, rocks look a lot cooler in crummy weather. So I think like changing your mindset to like, "I’m not hiking to get somewhere. I’m hiking to be in nature," can really change like your mentality of, "I don’t have to push myself to get to that place. Because just around the corner, there might be a cool thing to look at," and like really sit and explore and like look closely.
Margaret 1:04:19
Yeah, okay.
Pat 1:04:20
That’s my advice is to treat it like a walk in the woods before a trek. And you’ll eventually get better and more fit and more experience to be able to push on and do more extreme stuff.
Margaret 1:04:36
I like that a lot. Okay, well, that’s, that’s my questions. Is there like a question you wish I had asked you or like final thoughts or anything?
Pat 1:04:44
No, I think the biggest thing is that folks should get out and hike and push yourself, but have a backup plan and make sure that you don’t get in over your head. Drink your electrolytes. It’s hot.
Margaret 1:05:06
Yeah. What electrolyte do you rep? What do you pack?
Pat 1:05:12
The gold standard is the that Liquid IV brand, just because it’s like four times as much electrolytes than the other stuff. It’s also really expensive. So like the knockoff store brand version of that, I’ve found it like a Safeway has been…It’s been okay. Yeah, okay.
Margaret 1:05:34
Alright. Well, everyone go outside, or don’t, but probably do. See the world while it’s still around? I gotta admit, that’s been a big part of it for me is I’m like, "But I haven’t seen everywhere."
Pat 1:05:53
Yeah, I want to see it before that doesn’t happen there anymore. Yeah, it’s tough. Go touch really faraway grass.
Margaret 1:06:08
Yeah. Well, do you have anything that you want to promote or push? Or do you want people to follow you on the internet or support any given program or thing?
Pat 1:06:20
I wish I had thought about this before recording, but I don’t…I don’t like having an online presence. So don’t try to find me online. You can’t. But yeah, go for a hike. And touch some grass that’s really far away. That’s my advice. That’s what I’m gonna plug.
Margaret 1:06:41
Hell yeah.
Margaret 1:06:47
Thank you so much for listening. If you enjoyed this episode, please tell people about it. Word of mouth is the main way that podcasts spread. The other way is algorithmically. And, you can influence those algorithms by liking and subscribing and commenting and doing all that fucking bullshit that makes me very sad to have to point out is true. You can also support making this podcast happen. Several people make–well, not their living. It doesn’t don’t come out well enough for that. But several people make some part of their living by making this happen, including our audio engineer and our transcriptionist. And we really appreciate your support. And you can support us on Patreon at patreon.com/strangersinatangledwilderness, because this is published by Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness, which is an anarchist publishing collective that puts out podcasts, and zines, and books, and all kinds of stuff. In particular, I want to thank Lord Harken, Trixter, Princess Miranda, BenBen, Anonymous, Funder, Jans, Oxalix, Janice & O’dell, Paige, Aly, Paparouna, Milicia, Boise Mutual Aid, theo, Hunter, Shawn, S.J., Paige, Mikki, Nicole, David, Dana, Chelsea, Cat J., Staro, Jenipher, Eleanor, Kirk, Sam, Chris, Michaiah, and Hoss the Dog. Always Hoss the Dog. And there’s like new names on that list since the last time I read that and that makes me really happy. There’s a lot that we are trying to do as a collective that your support allows us to do and it will be cool. And you’ll be glad. Maybe. I hope so. Anyway, good luck with the apocalypse. I hope you all are building resilient communities and/or learning how to make hard tack. Maybe both. Talk to you soon.
July 28, 2023EpisodesComments Off on S1E81 – This Month in the Apocalypse: July, 2023
Episode Summary
On This Month in the Apocalypse, Brooke, Margaret, and Inmn talk about a lot of really bad things that happened in July, from the intensifying heat, to floods, to medicine shortages, to Antarctica’s ice melting, to grain shortages, to terrifying new laws. But also, there are some hopeful things that happened, and as always the group finds ways to stay positive and for communities to prepare for what’s to come.
Margaret 00:14
Hello and welcome to Live Like the World is Dying, your podcast for what feels like the end times. I’m Margaret. Now one of you says, "Hi."
Brooke 00:22
Hi, Margaret.
Margaret 00:26
No, you say "Hi," like you say who you are.
Brooke 00:29
Oh, hi, who I am. Brooke.
Inmn 00:32
And I’m Inmn.
Brooke 00:34
Did I do good? Was that good? Alright,
Margaret 00:37
Y’all did great. I’m joined by Brooke and Inmn today for another episode of This Month in the Apocalypse. And this is an extra special extra apocalypsey month that we’re going to be talking about because we’re talking about July, 2023, the hottest month in the history of humans being alive. Unless you’re listening to this in August, in which case maybe you’re like, "July that was some fucking amateur hour shit." But for now, hear us at the end of July, hottest month ever. And you know what else is hot is the Channel Zero Network, the network of anarchists podcasts. There’s nothing wrong with this comparison. We are a proud member of the Channel Zero Network of anarchist podcast and here’s a jingle from another show on the network. Da da da da duh daa [Humming a melody]
Inmn 02:12
And we’re back. And to start off today, we’re going to talk a little bit about global temperatures and the heatwave that we are in the middle of experiencing right now. So this July was quite possibly the hottest–or I mean, definitely the hottest month on record in, you know, a recorded historical way–and possibly one of the hottest months on the planet in a very long time. So I live in Arizona, and in Phoenix, the ground temperature…There were daily record breaks in the in the heat where the hottest day on record was…it was 117 degrees. And then the next day it was 118 degrees. And then the next day, it was 119 degrees.
Margaret 03:09
They won’t even make it to that 20. Like come on. Just give us the round number.
Brooke 03:15
No, no, don’t. Stay less.
Margaret 03:19
Oh, interesting. Okay. [dryly sarcastic]
Inmn 03:21
There is I learned, a really horrifying thing that happens at 120 degrees. So I really hope that it doesn’t get to 120 degrees. Do y’all know what happens when the ground temperature reaches 120 degrees in the sun?
Margaret 03:35
Does Mothra break out of the cracked Earth and fight Godzilla?
Inmn 03:53
It’s really bad. So in actuality, the temperature did reach 120 degrees because an enormous propane tank near the Sky Harbor International Airport exploded along with a bunch of like five gallon ones and it caused this huge fire. A bunch of cars were destroyed. And yeah, which you know, is by itself not like some huge world ending thing. But if you live anywhere where it might be 120 degrees on the ground, possibly in Arizona, take your propane tanks out of the sun because they might explode.
Margaret 04:35
Normally, I would say don’t put them inside because in general that’s a really bad idea. But, it’s probably better than like popcorn kernels in your yard.
Inmn 04:46
Yeah, yeah. And I say this for people who like, you know, if you have a grill outside that just has the propane tank attached to it and it’s not in the shade or anything. Um then, yeah, it could just explode and destroy your house.
Brooke 05:06
But only if it’s 120 degrees. If you’re at 119, you’re perfectly safe. Leave those propane tanks just right out there in the middle of the sun on the asphalt, right? [sarcastically]
Inmn 05:16
No, don’t do that. [laughing]
Margaret 05:18
Place them near the following people who run the following companies.
Brooke 05:29
Do you want to know about the the average overall temperatures in the month of July in Phoenix while we’re talking about Phoenix?
Margaret 05:36
I mean, no, but tell us anyway.
Brooke 05:39
Okay, for the month of July, in Phoenix, the average high temperature, daily high temperature, was 114 degrees. And here’s the really fun one, the average low temperature like the coldest it got was 90 degrees.
Margaret 05:56
There was also a new low warm record. There was a night in Phoenix where it didn’t get below 97 degrees.
Inmn 06:04
Oh, golly.
Margaret 06:06
Which is too hot.
Inmn 06:08
It is too hot.
Margaret 06:09
And, I didn’t write this number down because I forgot. Massive..Like there was also a record for the most electricity the city of Phoenix has ever drawn because everyone was running their air conditioners, for good reasons. This is not a "Don’t run your air conditioners," this is more of a, "There is a limit to what the grid can handle."
Inmn 06:31
Yeah. And just to, since we’re hyper focusing on Phoenix, in the last, I think–I don’t think this was last month– but in the last couple of months, the governor did halt a lot of new housing developments that were getting built due to concerns over the future of water in Phoenix.
Margaret 06:57
And it seems like there’s two ways to read that. There is the like…I am notably on the record of feeling like people who are…That Arizona is in trouble. I am on the record for that. And I don’t want to get into specifics. But the more kind way to read the lack of expansion is that it was less like these places are out of water and more that, I believe in Arizona, or in the Phoenix metro area or something, you have to be able to prove that there will be water access for the next 100 years in order to build. And so it is a little bit less like these places are out of water and more like, "We cannot guarantee this water." I think that’s the kinder way…No, not the kinder…That is one way to read that. The other is that Arizona is in fucking trouble.
Inmn 07:55
Yeah, and you know, it stems from these like larger issues of the Colorado River having these like all time lows in water flow, and just due to Phoenix being this like huge, sprawling place that is like under constant development. Like I think it’s where…Outside of Phoenix is where Bill Gates is trying to build some like new smart future city. Which is really confusing.
Margaret 08:27
Has fucking Elon Musk gotten into him or something?
Inmn 08:29
Yeah, like it’s supposed to be this like huge self contained smart city that’s outside of…it’s in the larger Phoenix area, but like is separated from Phoenix. And my first thing that I thought was like, "Why? There’s no…Where are you going to get water from?" Which I guess if you’re really…If you’re Bill Gates, you maybe have to worry less about where your water’s coming from. But…
Margaret 08:57
I mean, eventually. Other heat stuff from this month, let’s see, we had…I was looking at a bunch of maps of where all of this heatwave stuff hit right, and overall, the hardest hit places were the coastal south, the southwest, of course–Phoenix gets a lot of the attention and for good reason–the coastal South got an awful lot, and then actually in terms of it being way hotter than usual, it also affected the lower and middle Midwest. The Pacific Northwest and central Appalachia–aka the two best places in the country based on the general disbursement of the three people on this call–were the least affected. And last weekend–sorry last week–thousands of people across the US went to the hospital for heat related illnesses. Only six states have laws protecting workers that say things like "You actually can’t make people work when it’s too hot out or they’ll die." Only six states actually have laws that are like, "You have to provide like shade, and rest, and water for people working outside." I read a heartbreaking story about a young man who died laying cable trying to send money to his mother and work his way through school and all that shit. The federal government is working on a law about, "Maybe you shouldn’t let people work where it kills them in the heat." That law has not..They’ve been working on it for years and nothing has happened. Yep. Got any more heat heat or move on to wildfire?
Brooke 10:41
Capitalism is so ridiculous. The fact that we have to come along and legislate like, "Hey, maybe don’t work people to death in the heat." Like that shouldn’t have to be a law that anyone has to have because we are fucking human beings. And yeah, we should treat each other better. Yeah, yeah, sorry. It’s upsetting. So, the United States is not the only place that’s super hot. Europe’s going through another massive heatwave like they did last summer. And last summer’s heatwave, you may recall from the news, was breaking record temperatures and was quite severe. And one report I read said something like 60,000 Europeans died last year due to the heatwave. Their average temperatures are currently much higher than they were last summer even…or are getting to high temperatures earlier in the summer than they did last year. That’s what I really mean to say. And it’s affecting lots of things. For instance, Greece is experiencing wildfires on a massive scale, which I guess they’re somewhat prone to wildfires already like the Pacific Northwest. But, the amount of acreage burning right now is two and a half times the average that they’ve experienced this time of year. Particularly the island of Rhodes, which is a Greece Island. Greek. Greek island. [The island] has had to evacuate tens of thousands of people off the island due to the wildfires. There’s something like 90,000 acres of wildfires currently burning in Greece, which is a really significant size of wildfire. And it’s weird how much perspective shifts on this, especially being from somewhere like the Pacific Northwest where we’re kind of prone to wildfires. And if we get one that’s like 10,000-20,000 acres, I’m like, "Meh [disapprovingly]." I mean, that’s huge. But at the same time, in the last few years, we’ve had ones that are at 90,000-100,000 acres. So, you know, perspective shifts on what a severe wildfire is, but 90,000 acres is just massive. So yeah. Greece is…Greece is not having a good time with the fires right now.
Margaret 13:03
And then, right before we hit record [on the episode], I was reading about how today, there’s a third 300,000 person city in Sicily, whose name I forgot to write down, that is largely without water or electricity today because the 46 degree Celsius which I want to say is like 118 [Fahrenheit], or something like that, melted asphalt and fucked up all the infrastructure underneath. So no more electricity and water in a town of 300,000, that is also like experiencing a ton of wildfire. Apparently like the city is also surrounded by wildfire, but maybe that was a different city nearby.
Brooke 13:45
You know when you say that, Margaret, it does…I distinctly remember us talking last summer about the heatwave and how a lot of European towns, countries, aren’t built for the high heats and things were melting like that. Like the asphalt and stuff.
Margaret 13:59
And then, yeah, I remember. And you had England, you had like the tarmac, which is the British word for asphalt, I think. I don’t know. They don’t do anything. Right. And then, speaking of places that Europe hasn’t done right, Northern Africa is also completely fucked by the current heatwave. And in particular, wildfires. Algerian wildfires are fucking everything up. Like, as I’m…Like, as we’re recording, unfortunately, they’ll probably get worse by the time this comes out. Algerian wildfires, so far, have killed at least 38 people, including at least 10 soldiers who were doing wildland fire duty. More than 1,500 people have been evacuated from 97 fires around that country. Tunisia is also having some fucking times because, actually, it turns out that national borders are nonsense. And Algiers, the city of Algiers, had a fun 120 degree day. This I believe last week. And two years ago, Algerian wildfires killed 65 people in one week, including, a lot of those people are the people who are like, bravely fighting those wildfires. And I don’t know, those people are fucking heroes and martyrs to climate change.
Brooke 15:17
Is the heat causing other kinds of problems in the world, Margaret?
Margaret 15:21
You mean the Antarctic ice that isn’t there? Well hear me out. It’s actually a solution because we’re all going to move to Antarctica, which will be green. And there won’t be any Lovecraftian temples with strange writing…in the mountains of madness. Someone’s gonna yell at me about Lovecraft. Anyway. Antarctica is like having some real interesting times. I don’t know if people have seen the news this week. Every now and then like climate change people like post the deviation from norms charts, where the like waves go up and down and stuff. And this year’s, they’re just not. Usually they’re like, "Check it out. This wave is a little bit different. It’s pushing the envelope. It’s got some new records." There’s no Antarctic ice. That’s an exaggeration. That’s hyperbole. Antarctic ice is lower than it’s possible for people to easily conceptualize right now. It’s winter in Antarctica right now. It’s…When we talk about the hottest year on record, and we’re like, "Oh, well, it’s summer. Of course, it’s hot, right?" Where I’m at, the hottest year in the fucking world, half of the world is in winter right now. Right? But, sea temperatures are rising, which actually are going to…Fuck I forgot to write this down..I was reading about right beforehand. There’s a new study saying that the Gulf Stream, the thing that like cycles the fucking goddamn waters of the world, will likely stop somewhere between 2025 and 2100, with the average guess being about 2050 but as soon as two years from now. Which will have all kinds of changes. Ironically, one of them is that Europe might get colder. It’s that movie, The Day After Tomorrow, is based on this concept of the Gulf streams disappearing.
Brooke 17:10
Oh, that movie.
Margaret 17:11
Yeah. That beautiful, wonderful movie. I barely remember it. We snuck into the theater. And I was like too paranoid the whole time. I was like afraid we’d get caught because we were like, really obviously dirty punks. And it was just like, so obvious. But, we didn’t get caught. And I don’t really remember much about that movie besides it’s cold, and that people are willing to walk a very long way for their family, which is very sweet. So this event is, this is a historic low of ice following the previous all time lows of 2016, 2017, and 2022. But this is a five to six sigma event. Five to six–not like cool guys who’d go their own way–but five to six standard deviations away from a normal event, which is a meaningless thing. I had to spend like 20 minutes reading about what the fuck that means to try and explain it to people because you’re just like, "Oh, it’s a lot, right?" It’s a lot, a lot. Statistically, a four sigma event, four standards of probability standard deviation thing, is now you’re talking about something that is functionally 100%. Right? This is now so far…Basically, it’s like imagine stuff is on a bell curve. The far edges of it are the sigma, are the standard deviations away from the norm, the norm is the center. When you get to the…When you get to like four, you’re at functionally 100% of things don’t don’t fall into this, right? Or something that happens functionally 0% of the time, it’s not actually 0% of the time. So it is…but it’s often seen as statistically insignificant. For example, if you were to flip a coin 100 times, the odds of that coming up heads all 100 times is one in 3.5 million. That is a five sigma event. Right? The standard deviation, this the amount of Antarctic ice that isn’t there this winter when it’s supposed to be coming back, is more than that. It is about twice that. It is a one in 7.5 million year event, which isn’t to say this happened 7.5 million years ago. It didn’t. That’s the odds of it happening randomly any given year. So it’s really funny because scientists have to be very exact, which is part of what causes a lot of like climate change confusion, because if you ask a scientist like, "Is this man made?" a scientist has to be like, "We cannot to 100% certainty, certain that," right? Because they’re like, because they’re not certain, and science is based on an uncertainty. And so like a lot of the articles they’re like, "Look, technically we’re not sure. It’s just really, really unlikely that it isn’t." And I remember–one time I asked one of my science minded doctor friends–I was like, "What are the odds I am going to have the following health problem that is too personal for me to explain on-air?" He was like, "Look, that is possible. That is a possible risk vector. It’s about as likely as you getting eaten by a shark, today, in Asheville, North Carolina." Which is to say, it was possible but not worth fucking worrying about. And this is the opposite of that. This is worth fucking worrying about. And ice decrease, of course, obviously, it makes the water get bigger, right, because it’s not in ice form. But also, ice reflects back an awful lot of sunlight. There is a chance that the ice will be back next year. There is a chance that it won’t. I was not able to find…I was able to find scientists being like, "We don’t fucking know." I was not able to find scientists giving statistics. This is…I think..So I’m gonna go on a rant. I warned everyone–not you all the listeners–but I warned my co-host that I’m gonna go on a little bit of a rant today.
Brooke 20:58
And that was it.
Margaret 20:59
No, no, we’re just getting started. Sorry.
Brooke 21:05
Let me buckle in for this. We buckle in for this. Okay, yeah, ready to go.
Margaret 21:07
Alright. So I think…I try really hard to not be like, the-sky-is-falling girl, right? I talk about preparedness and possible bad futures. Semi professional–actually, I don’t get paid for this–but like, I do it a lot. It’s like one of the main things. It’s like, what I do with my time. And I try really hard to be like, "Look, we don’t know. Don’t put all your eggs into your savings for the when-you’re-80 basket. But also don’t put none of them in, right? Because the future is unknowable. And that is true. I think that this month marks a turning point where we can no longer in good conscience, talk about climate change as a possibility or even as like a certainty that’s a little bit away. And we don’t know how bad it’s going to be. I think we have to talk about things from the point of view that this is happening. And this is really bad. And this is going to stay bad no matter what we do. That is not to say we can’t do anything. And that’s not to say we can’t mitigate it. But I think that we need to just like…I know I will at least have to stop hedging some of what I say. And I think that this month is the most clear that we are in a really bad time–I don’t wanna say "apocalypse," because it’s a sort of a meaningless word–since we’ve been having the show, with the possible exception of March, 2020. And so I just like really quickly–and we’ll get back to our regularly scheduled talking about some stuff–I want to talk about some of the stuff we can do really quickly and like what I think is really useful. And overall, what I believe is useful, is that we need to start working together in communities to build bottom-up solutions, not necessarily just to climate change–although that’s true–but to preparing for and weathering the impacts of climate change. I don’t believe that top-down solutions are coming. Prove me wrong government handler assigned to listen to this show. Prove me fucking wrong. I will turn in my anarchy card if you fucking stop global warming. Maybe. I might thank you and then still try to end you. But…
Brooke 23:25
Weather. Weathering climate change.
Margaret 23:31
I believe that working to create small, medium, and large scale communities that work from the bottom-up, that are horizontally organized, that work in federation with other groups to organize on as large of scale as is necessary, is our best bet going forward for how we can mitigate the worst effects of this, both in terms of our survivability, and in terms of having a culture that directly confronts fossil fuel infrastructure, that directly confronts, you know, the people who are doing this, right? There’s that old, I think Utah Phillips quote, "The Earth isn’t dying, it’s being killed. And the people who are doing the killing have names and addresses."
Brooke 24:22
I’m gonna put that on my wall.
Margaret 24:24
I believe that we can build the kind of resilient communities that can allow more of us to live as long and healthy lives as is possible, considering what’s happening. And I believe that the time to start thinking about that and doing that is now. I think that it is time for people to talk to their neighbors. It is time for people to work at like whatever your local community center is that is most aligned to your values. If you don’t have one, fucking start one, and start having skill shares. Start prioritizing this. I think that people should make their decisions about where they want to live based on climate right now, and not just move away from the bad–obviously, that’s going to happen–but also like where you want to live when/if the structures that currently provide for us are no longer able to do so. Like for myself, I didn’t pick "I’m moving to where I think is going to be the least impacted by climate change." I moved to where my family is. Because that is a priority that I will make above my own personal safety every time, you know. But everyone’s going to make those decisions differently. And then the other final thing is that I think that we have this problem where Al Gore government type people are like, "This is your fault because you didn’t use fluorescent light bulbs, you used incandescent light bulbs," right? [Brooke laughs] To date myself to like 20 years ago when that was like a way that we were trying to get blamed as individuals, like, "If you don’t recycle then like the world’s gonna end." And it’s like, "Oh, the world’s ending. It’s clearly because I didn’t recycle enough." Like one, recycling is mostly fake. Although it shouldn’t be. And I think it’s still good practice for people to think about their waste, right? But, and so individual like so…[tails of and start over] So there’s this problem where corporations are like, "Ah, individuals, that’s the solution. We don’t have to change anything," right. But we can accidentally fall on the other side of that. And we can say like, "Oh, well, since this isn’t my fault. And my individual choices don’t necessarily change things. I’m off the hook." And we the way we talk about the hook is wrong. There is a difference between fault and responsibility. It is not your fault, dear listener, that this is happening. Right? It is not your fault that you once got drunk and threw a car battery in the ocean. I have no idea why everyone uses throwing car batteries into the ocean as the example of horrible pollution that individuals can do. But it like comes up all the time. So, if you…[interrupted]
Brooke 26:58
I have ever heard that example before.
Margaret 27:00
Then you have different DMs than me. When you wanna talk about climate change, people are like, "I’m gonna throw my car battery into the ocean." I don’t get it. If someone wants to explain it to me, you can send it to me by my DMs and I won’t look. And but there is a difference between the fault and the responsibility. It is not your fault, right? But it is our–not your–our responsibility because no one else is going to fucking do it. Rather, the people whose fault it is, are not going to fucking do it. And we need to figure out how to do this because we’re running out of time. And I think that…It’s essentially liberalism in a bad sense. It is both liberalism to blame the individual, right? But it’s also liberalism to be like, "Well, it’s not my fault. So I don’t have to do anything about it," because like, when you’re being oppressed, right, like…For example, I, to use myself as an example as like a trans person, right? It is like not my fault that people hate trans people. But like, I don’t want to be oppressed. So, I need to look at doing that. I need to look at solving my problems even though it isn’t my fault. And it is a delicate balance to walk when we talk about this because we need to not blame victims. But we need, as collectively the billions of victims of climate change, to figure out our own power and work our way out of this. I think that’s the end of my rant.
Brooke 28:31
Actually, I really appreciate that, Margaret, especially the end part there, just because like I, in my own personal life, have been struggling with a little bit of that lately, especially with the heat this summer, and that feeling like, you know, there’s nothing I can do, this isn’t my fault, so fuck it, I want to turn down my AC some more or something like that. And I haven’t, but that like the mentality that I’m struggling with sometimes right now. So I really appreciate you saying that.
Margaret 28:59
Yeah, and like use your AC. Like, I mean when there’s like…Sometimes you get these like warnings–there are individual structures that are currently top-down that I don’t think are bad–like when they send out a text being like, "Look, if everyone could kind of lay off the power a little bit so we don’t all have brownouts, that would be really good." Like you know, that’s when we can all like pitch in. It sucks that we’re all expected to pitch in while they still fucking clear cut, and drill, and burn everything in the goddamn world.
Inmn 29:29
Yeah, it’s like the…Like this came up in Texas. Was it last year or like the year before with like the huge power outages in Texas? They were due to…There was like a huge heat wave. And the thing, one of the things that the grid collapsing was blamed on was people cranking their ACs because it was like 115 degrees outside. And which, you know, probably probably the ACs are not actually what caused the grid to collapse. It’s like, the normal strain of the grid is supporting so many unnecessary and ridiculous things. But like, people were asked to turn off their air conditioners, right, during a heatwave so that the grid wouldn’t collapse because the grid is not managed well and it’s owned by private companies and they don’t manage it well. And so the grid collapsed. And then people were like…People were getting heat sick. People were dying. And it’s like, we can rely on things like ACs to cool ourselves. But we actually can’t because of the mismanagement of utilities and stuff like that could be what causes grids to collapse, not because it is the individual’s like fault, but that there’s all this other mismanagement and strain from Capitalism, etc.
Margaret 30:57
Totally. And like, I think it’s a good example too where, at the same time, it is not the people who want to turn up their AC’s fault, right? But I want to be alive more than I want to not be at fault, right? So it’s like, if I…[interrupted]
Inmn 31:15
Just because it’s not our fault, it still might cause it.
Margaret 31:20
It’s our problem. You know, someone else caused a problem. Like, the person who’s hitting me with a stick, it is their fault that they are hitting me with a stick, but they’re clearly not going to stop. And the AC example is like, if I get a text that’s like, "Turn down your AC or everyone’s power is going to go out. I’m going to turn down my AC because I don’t want everyone’s power to go out." And it’s not because I’m like–I mean, it is a good like, we’re all pitching in together to not die thing, right–but it’s also like…It’s hard, because it then becomes easy to blame people to be like, "Oh, you didn’t turn down your AC. So it’s your fault." It’s like, "No, it’s the people who fucking…" I mean, Texas is that brilliant example, where it’s like cut off from the rest of America’s grid because it’s like, "We got to be Texas." And that’s like, why it’s so–and that and all the privatization–is why it’s so precarious. And so we just build resiliency. It’s like, I don’t want to be pure fault. I want to be alive. And so like, I want to say like, "Okay, what will I do to keep cool if my AC goes out?" You know? Anyway.
Brooke 32:29
Can I point out that it’s weird how we talk about AC because we talk about turning down the AC, which makes me think like turning down power. But actually, what we mean is turning down temperature. Yeah. And then I say, when I say like, turn up the AC, that means make it, I’m making it hot–in my mind, in my mind–if I turn up the AC. Anyway. Yeah, it’s difficult. Yeah. Floods!
Margaret 32:54
All right.
Margaret 32:56
That would be really bad if there’s more than one disaster at once. Can’t wildfires be enough? Or have there been floods?
Inmn 33:02
There have also been floods. And I’m going to focus in on a couple of kind of specific floods that have happened this month in the United States. But there is this…It points to this larger problem and some of the things that I learned after digging into the floods in Vermont, kind of highlight some key issues that I think are worth exploring. So, the flood in Vermont that happened on like July 10th or 11th or something, where essentially two whole months of rain fell in two days. There was like nine inches of rain, which, I was curious how much water that is because, you know, we hear like, "Oh, one inch of rain, nine inches of rain." Like what does that mean? And nine inches of rain over like, over 20,000 square miles–which I don’t actually know how big Vermont is, but this is the statistic that I looked up–is like two and a half not trillion but the next number, the next magnitude. Quadrillion?
Margaret 34:24
I don’t really know what’s above a trillion off the top my head.
Inmn 34:26
Yeah, it’s like two and a half quadrillion gallons of water, you know. It’s so…I hope I don’t get at’d about this math, but…
Margaret 34:35
No, it is quadrillion. That is the…Well, you at least got the word right. I looked at that.
Inmn 34:41
Great, great, great. Yeah, it’s like…It’s that much water. So like when we think about like, "Oh, one inch of rain is falling." Like one inch of rain falling in one day as a lot. You know, like where I used to live flooded over an inch and a half of rain, you know? And so to put that in perspective, nine inches of rain fell in Vermont over a two day period. And in the first 24 hours, the river–and I am not going to pronounce this right–the Winooski River, it rose 19 feet in 24 hours. And then on the next day, in a couple hours, it rose to 40 feet. And they’re measuring this on a 170 foot dam. And are there any guesses as to how high the water rose on that dam?
Brooke 35:41
70 foot damn. Water had nine inches….
Margaret 35:47
I’m just gonna be wrong. Seven feet.
Brooke 35:50
Oh, I was gonna guess like 50 feet.
Margaret 35:51
Yeah, I just figured I’d be wrong.
Inmn 35:54
It rose 169 feet.
Margaret 35:58
Nice. I mean…
Inmn 36:02
It came within one foot of the dam breaching, which it like, this dam sits over Montpelier, which is like one of the only cities in Vermont, and so the dam came within inches of breaching and…
Margaret 36:16
Oh, jeez, it would have flooded the city.
Inmn 36:19
Yes, it would have. Like, this already huge catastrophe would have turned into something several magnitudes higher if the dam had been breached.
Brooke 36:31
As an indigenous woman. I’m like, "Fuck you, dams." But at the same time, like I don’t want them to break like that and kill a bunch of people.
Inmn 36:40
Yeah, and yeah. And so the dam did not breach. There was only one recorded death in the incident.
Margaret 36:50
A lot better than Pennsylvania did this month for floods in terms of deaths.
Brooke 36:55
But, wait, what happened Pennsylvania?
Inmn 36:56
Wait, wait, sorry. I got more. I got more. So, one of the other big concerns, and I think this ties in well to kind of preparedness, is locally, there were a lot of people worried about a rather large houseless population that was turned out of COVID housing, like a COVID housing program that ended in June, and so in July, there were like, a lot more houseless people kicking around areas–and houseless people, as some may know, love to congregate around like rivers and stuff because those are usually pretty chill places to hang out and like access resources and stuff. And so like, one thing that’s noted is that like a lot of people experiencing housing insecurity tend to congregate in the most flood prone areas because those are the areas available to people to congregate. And so one cool thing that did happen is there was this shelter network, that when they heard about the severe storms, they immediately went and started doing outreach to people living by the river. And actually, they were able to do in evacuation of people on a bus. The bus actually ended up getting caught in floodwaters and was destroyed. But the people on it were not harmed. And people were able to like evacuate by other means. But yeah, just as like a wonderful thing you can do if you think your area might experience a flood is doing outreach to like houseless communities who might not know about the danger and might not have the resources to escape it themselves. Yeah. One of the other big things was that in Vermont–this isn’t quite as true as in a lot of other places, but it’s something specific to areas like Vermont, or like West Virginia, or like other mountainous areas–like they have that phrase like, "Well, it’s only three miles as the crow flies, but it’s going to take an hour and a half to get there on the windy mountainous roads." Well, Vermont has a lot of windy mountainous roads, and almost all of those roads became completely undriveable because of roads washing out, mudslides, and these like huge floodwaters. And so the populations of Vermont were largely left trapped in their homes unable to escape if things had gotten worse. Like people described being completely cut off on these little, you know, mini islands in floodwaters. And yeah, just things to think about if you live in these, if you live in mountainous areas, is like having these kind of early warnings to leave places because as much as you might be able to fortify your house as like a bunker for preparedness, if you get trapped in it and it floods then it didn’t save your life.
Brooke 40:14
That goes back to what you [Margaret] were saying about community building earlier.
Margaret 40:20
As someone who often lives in the mountains, and currently lives in the mountains, and this is like…Mountains flash flood really bad. And a lot of mountainous areas, like in the mountains, people often build in the hollers in the lower areas between, you know, in the valleys between different pieces of the mountain and stuff. But…And usually it’s like the town actually floods sometimes more than some of the rural houses outside of town. Not necessarily, right. But it’s like, because you put all…If you have a bunch of houses, you put them in the low lying area. But, if you’ve got like two houses, you can put them up on the ridge. And there’s like unfortunately…If you’re randomly being like, "Man, I want to move to the mountains," you should think about buying one of the houses and that’s up on a hill instead of down in the valley for that reason. And then the other weird random thing that I was like reading about is that apparently in a lot of flood prone places–this isn’t like…this isn’t gonna save everyone–but people put an axe in their attic because one of the ways that a lot of people die in floods is that they go higher and higher in their house. And so then, as it gets up to their second floor, or whatever the fuck, they then go into their attic. But if you go into your attic, you can’t get out in a flood. And so some people keep an axe in their attic. I don’t know whether that’s…I’m reading about it in a book, but in a fiction book, you know?
Inmn 41:43
Yeah. Yeah, that is…that is weirdly relatable. Like me and Margaret used to live somewhere that was prone to flooding. And I remember the first time that we got a really bad flood, like this was when our eight foot wide stream turned into like a 70 foot wide moving current of water that was up to your chest…
Margaret 42:10
And bringing all kinds of shit down from…
Inmn 42:14
Yeah, and yeah, there’s like trees floating by. And there’s all these, you know, tiny houses and structures and stuff, and nobody there was all that concerned about it I think, except for me. Like, we were running around trying to save tools, and equipment, and like stuff like that, and make sure the cars were up on the highest ground possible. And I was like, "We have to leave because we might not be able to if we wait too long." And like, thankfully, I was wrong. But like it worried me how unworried people were about the flood in this like mountainous area that we could have easily become trapped in.
Margaret 42:59
I was a little bit like, "My house was on the hill." So I went down to help. Why don’t we put our houses on the hill, which is not very community minded of me.
Inmn 43:12
No, that’s fine. But sorry, just to speak to one other thing real quick. So another thing to think about with flooding is that–and I’ve never thought about this until I was reading about it to prepare for this–but if you grow food, either in a garden or on a farm water, like when there’s these huge floods–especially when the wastewater management facility gets like flooded out like it did in Vermont–all of the water that is in this flood water is very dirty. It’s filled with like…It’s filled with raw sewage, like a stupid amount of raw sewage. It’s filled with like oil, and like contaminants, and like chemicals, and like anything that was swept up in the floodwaters. And so, if you grow food and your garden gets flooded out, you can’t eat any of that food, even if it’s like root vegetables Like pretty much like all fruit and vegetables that get contaminated by floodwater are like completely inedible and like unsafe to eat. So, it’s something that, you know, in a local area where a flood happens, it can cause a lot of problems for people and then like globally, it can also cause huge problems with food insecurity. Yeah. And, talking about another food insecurity thing that’s connected to floods, so, in Ukraine this past month, a dam, like one of the largest water reservoirs in Europe, was blown up. And you know, a lot of people are like, "Oh, the Russians did it because they’re in control of it." And the Russians are like, "We didn’t do it, but the dam did mysteriously blow up". And it…
Margaret 45:10
Derek Jensen was running…Someone in a raccoon sweater was seen running from the crime, screaming about how trans people are bad.
Inmn 45:17
Yeah. And so like this…the water in Kherson rose 20 feet, and it destroyed all of these like irrigation systems. And it is expected to affect 600,000 hectares of farmland that produce over 4 million tons of grain and a huge amount of the world’s vegetable oil.
Margaret 45:48
Okay, I was reading about how there’s a vegetable oil shortage is expected. But I didn’t get to the why. That explains that.
Inmn 45:55
Because a dam exploded in Ukraine.
Margaret 45:59
Because of the war that is currently localized but will eventually spread.
Inmn 46:04
Brooke, are there other things going on with food insecurity?
Brooke 46:07
Never. But maybe. I don’t think I have anything on food insecurity.
Inmn 46:14
Oh, oh, sorry, I read the notes wrong.
Margaret 46:16
I made these notes ahead of time for everyone. And I put them in the chat. But then they lost all their–just so everyone knows behind the scenes and all the cool insider information–I put in the chat an agenda of what we’re going to talk about, but it lost all of the formatting when I pasted it in. So, it’s basically incomprehensible. But, I will tell you about medication insecurity. Ehh? That will make everyone happy. Because that’s not one of the…Okay, just to be clear, like medication is obviously one of the things that people will get the most concerned about when it comes to preparedness and stuff, right? Because of the way that medication is gate kept–sometimes for good reasons, sometimes for bad reasons–It is not necessarily available to people to do anything sort of like stockpiling and things like that, right? And we rely on a lot of medications for very good reasons in our society. Tornado Alley. You’re like, "Oh, obviously it’s related to tornadoes." Tornado Alley is the alley…It’s the the part of the US where tornadoes are sort of expected and normal, as if they’re not fucking terrifying. Jesus Christ. There’s very few natural disasters I’m more like… Because I feel like a tornado could just be behind your back and you wouldn’t know. It’s like a horror movie. You’re driving down the road, and then everything turns green, and then all of a sudden there’s this death machine just like, "Baaaah!" [makes a ‘scaring someone noise] and it’s coming at you–and it makes exactly that noises and sticks his tongue out. And people are like, not excited about tornadoes. At least I’m not.
Brooke 46:19
And they’re green and have tongues.
Margaret 47:35
Yeah, well, the sky does turn green sometimes before a tornado. Anyway, so Tornado Alley is expanding thanks to climate change is the point of this. And there’s been more and more bad tornadoes further east than there used to be. A tornado in Rocky Mount North Carolina, which is outside of previous Tornado Alley, at least according to the article I read. I’ve been in North Carolina when there have been tornadoes, but they weren’t like, "This is totally normal." It was like kind of a bad thing. Well, do you know that there was one 1.4 million square foot Pfizer a manufacturing plant that was responsible for 25% of all of Pfizer’s medications that it sends out to hospitals?
Brooke 48:24
Nope.
Margaret 48:27
Did you know that one tornado destroyed the entire fucking thing this month? A tornado of 150 mile per hour wind speeds–I wrote down the like classification, but then I deleted it because I didn’t feel like looking at all the classifications and trying to explain it…A tornado. It was a bad tornado. And it fucked this thing up. It destroyed 50,000 pallets of medication. And more specifically than that, it stopped the ability for this plant to produce the medication. It was an injectable sterile medication place, so, a lot of anesthetics, so things that make you unconscious, and I think also some antibiotics, and other stuff that goes into like IVs, and stuff was destroyed and the capacity for Pfizer to make more of it was destroyed. The one silver lining is that the article used to have it wrong and say, "25% of the US’s injectable medication." That was only Pfizer’s percent, which is probably a lot still. Pfizer’s a really fucking big name in medication. So medication shortages were already, before this, the worst that they’ve been in 10 years. In 2014 there were medication shortages about as bad as now. At the end of June, again before the tornado, there were 309 specific like named drug shortages in the United States. A lot of them are related to like chemotherapy and all kinds of stuff. So that’s bad.
Brooke 49:52
I didn’t realize the medication shortage was worse now than it was like during the height of the pandemic and the end of it because I feel like you don’t hear about it.
Margaret 50:02
Yeah, I mean, well the pandemics over. So no one has to worry about anything anymore. [said sarcastically] I feel like this is the kind of thing where it’s like, it’s so hard because it’s like…Well, it’s like, as we talked with…Like, This Month in the Apocalypse is just a fuck ton of bad shit, right? Like and we’re talking about or like some posi like little silver lining, like I saw cute monkey, kind of style stories, you know. Like, he’s on roller skates. And, and it’s like, it’s hard to spin fucking this shit. It’s hard to spin. Too much of our…I don’t even want to tell them they’re making drugs wrong. I don’t know how to fucking make insulin, you know. But, obviously, there’s some problems with centralization when there’s tornadoes around, which I guess was like my Mothra-Godzilla thing I was talking about earlier. And I don’t know, I mean…but it’s the kind of thing that I wish we stayed more aware of. And I think it’s the kind of thing that people mostly don’t want to think about because we like to imagine that even if we’d go into debt to do so, if bad things happen, the existing system will be there for us. And, I don’t want to knock the people who work really goddamn hard to make the existing system work, and the nurses, and doctors, and all the rest of the staff who work endlessly to make this shit happen. And so Pfizer is trying to move that manufacturing to other plants. But they haven’t been able to yet. And they’re basically like, "Look, it’s not actually easy. You would be talking about moving…" None of the employees were hurt is the one upside of all of it. There’s 2000 employees at that plant. And that’s all I got. Besides…Are we ready for headlines like do do do [makes type write noise] headline time?
Inmn 51:49
I think Brooke has something about a murder wall.
Brooke 51:52
I know, but I don’t want to talk about it anymore. Because it’s so depressing. I want to talk about happy headlines.
Margaret 51:59
Should we just shout out that there’s a fucking murder wall and it’s bad.
Brooke 52:04
The great state of Texas. Yeah, that wonderful place, and it’s a dictator du jour, Greg Abbott, decided to roll out some new measures in order to try and stop immigration across the border. So they got a whole bunch of buoys. Buoys are things that float in the water that are like wrecking ball size, which I actually don’t know how big a wrecking ball is, but I assume they’re massive,
Margaret 52:31
Bigger than a breadbox.
Brooke 52:38
Like the size of a car maybe? I actually don’t know. Somebody, somebody comment and tell us how big wrecking balls are. I don’t know big. Anyway, they got a shit ton of them and floated them out into the Rio Grande River and anchored them to the riverbed to basically create a floating wall in the middle of the river that’s currently about 1000 feet long and make it longer. And then they also went through…As part of that project, there’s lots of little islands that are on the Rio, and they tend to have grasses, and shrub brushes, and stuff like that. And they had the the Texas military go in and basically bulldoze everything off the top of the islands. So, they’re just like dirt mounds in the middle of the river, and also,
Margaret 53:25
Some World War I shit is what’s happening.
Brooke 53:27
Yeah, yeah, they bulldozed down the riverbanks on the United States side so that they could put up barbed wire along sections of the river there to, which you know, the river is at its low part right now because we’re in summer, so I’m sure that taking away all of the vegetation and root systems won’t have any problems with the waters rise later in the year. [Sarcastically]
Inmn 53:53
None at all. [Also sarcastically]
Margaret 53:54
Well, you know, it’s just worth the trade off to economically destroy….Even if even if I was a fucking capitalist, I would be against the border wall. Like what the fuck? Like?
Brooke 54:04
Yeah, it’s…There’s several things that are wrong with it besides just the really obvious, you know, ethical wrongness of the whole fucking thing.
Margaret 54:14
The murderness.
Brooke 54:14
And, you know, as an indigenous person, I have really complicated feelings about that because borders and migration anyway, but like it was the state of Texas that did it. They didn’t talk to the local cities and municipalities about the work that they were doing. So they just, you know, rolled up destroying this shit. And then it’s also technically international waters because it’s a border between two countries and they didn’t talk to Mexico about it either or the federal government for that matter. So you know, Mexico is threatening to to take action against Texas, and the federal government has sued the state of Texas, and local governments are super pissed off. So fun on so many levels.
Margaret 54:59
I’m glad people are pissed off about it. So that’s the one…I’m glad that murder wall has been a step too far for even some governments.
Inmn 55:09
Yeah, I mean, it’s like, Arizona did a similar thing last year before the governor…Like when the governor realized that he was not going to get reelected, He started building this giant shipping container wall along the border. And he was actually ordered by the federal government to stop doing it. And he just didn’t. And there were…But there were all these like interesting things that happened where there were local sheriffs and stuff who were enforcing that law against the governor, like the people building the wall. And then there were all these wild disputes about it, where it became very like a the US government versus the US government like situation.
Margaret 55:57
I don’t hate that. I’ve played enough Risk. I know that when my enemies are fighting, it’s time to sit back.
Inmn 56:04
Yeah, but a really cool thing that was able to happen was that a lot of people were, because it was not a legal thing, were able to stage some pretty large scale defense against the area by going and occupying the area to stop construction, but no one was going to arrest them because it wasn’t legal for them to be building it.
Brooke 56:25
Oh, this river section also hosts a large annual kayak race that now can’t happen because the buoys are in the way, so like a Republican kayaker guy who’s like, you know, super into anti-immigration, is like, "But now that, you know, we can’t do our kayak race here, I’m super pissed off about it." So like, even more reasons that people are angry about this that are ridiculous, but hey, let’s, you know, let’s be angry.
Margaret 56:55
Yeah.
Inmn 56:56
Yeah, golly. Is it time for headlines?
Margaret 57:00
It’s time for headlines. Is that our wait, we got to come up with….[Brooke makes type write noise] Yeah, there we go. Alright. What I got. Okay, you know how there’s this thing that like COVID and the flu and shit were all hitting and then there was also RSV, which like mostly comes up for kids, and adults…In adults who aren’t old. I don’t know how to phrase this. Without, okay, whatever. In some people, it just manifests as a cold and other people it is really bad, right? RSV I don’t even know what it stands for. I didn’t write down enough. This is my supposed to be my headlines. And now I’m contextualizing…They have an injectable antibody that the FDA just approved called Beyfortus. And it’s the first time that there has been a good specific thing that is like a preventative for RSV that has become available. And so that’s promising. I’m curious to see how that goes. Because I know RSV was like fucking over a lot of people I know. Apparently, cement is one of the biggest causes of climate change and damage. It is the 12th biggest cause of climate change. It beats out air travel, apparently. And it…And cement overall puts out more carbon than the entire country of India does. One company is working on a carbon negative cement that is just like manufactured very different from Portland cement. Portland cement is like the main way that people make cement, which both involves a lot of burning of carbon in order to create it because you need kilns. And also then it is slowly off gassing carbon for like, a very long time with the concrete. And so they’re working on, and they’ve proven it to be like structurally sound, and who knows whether this will act…[interrupts self] I know that it won’t see widespread adoption because there’s no incentive for it because capitalism is the economic system that runs the world. But someone has invented a concrete that actually absorbs carbon. It just sort of passively brings it on instead of putting it out.
Brooke 59:15
I don’t know if this is the same project, but I worked for a nonprofit a couple of years ago, or right before the start of the pandemic, that was doing research into this very thing. And they were putting really tiny amounts of wood fiber, cellulose, into cement and they were…They weren’t doing it. They were funding, because it was a charity organization, they were funding the testing of this. And I wonder if this is maybe the next stage of that or even the same company.
Margaret 59:41
This company is called Brimstone, which is funny. They might be evil. They might not be. But, they’re named Brimstone and we don’t live in a boring world. And then my final little posi note is that some agricultural workers have been like…Well, some agricultural workers have been dying in the heat. And so another agricultural woman, agricultural worker woman, developed a cooling vest and has just been doing a lot of studies about like, just specific ways about like, how people who are working outside and are stuck working outside beat the heat with these hot new ideas. But it’s like…It’s one of those things where it’s like, well, what if people just didn’t have to do this fun work outside in the goddamn heat? But, it’s still good for us to develop these systems. And I love that it is coming from people who do this work themselves. So, I think it’s like kind of a swamp cooler style vest. It’s like…And they just did a lot of studies about like, if a worker drinks water, versus a worker drinks electrolytes, the person who drinks electrolytes is going to have a substantially lower risk of hospitalization and heatstroke. And then even like, wearing a wet bandanna makes a huge difference. Obviously, like anything that relies on swamp cooling is going to be different based on your humidity levels. If you’re in the southeast, it’s going to be way harder to use passive cooling from water than if you live in the southwest. But that’s what I got. Anyone else? De de deet deet, de de deet deet [making typewriter noises] Hot off the Wire.
Inmn 1:01:22
I have a bunch of headlines. They’re not good. One is interesting.
Margaret 1:01:30
You’re fired. I’m not actually capable of doing that. Okay.
Inmn 1:01:36
In the great state of Florida this month, it was declared by Rick DeSantis that middle schoolers will be taught about the personal benefits that slavery had for individuals as part of DeSantis’ "War on Wokeness." He also was quoted as saying that he was really upset about the ways that–and he meant this in how Democrats are doing it–are criminalizing political differences, which is interesting because he’s like the forefront of criminalizing political differences.
Margaret 1:02:16
So, it’s almost like it’s illegal to advocate the eradication of people based on their race.
Inmn 1:02:21
Yeah. And he passed some wild laws in Florida this month. This one, this one is…Like by itself, you might hear it and you’re like, "Lack of sympathy," but like contextualizing it with other stuff that Rick DeSantis is doing is important. So, he passed a law that allowed for the death penalty in child rape convictions despite the Supreme Court having ruled otherwise. Which, you know, when I hear that I’m like, this is another Roe v. Wade situation of states like trying to get laws passed in the hopes that when federal rulings are overturned that they have these laws on the books.
Margaret 1:03:03
Yeah, I mean, this is so that he can kill gay people and trans people.
Inmn 1:03:06
Yeah, so then interestingly, in Texas last month, a lesbian couple was arrested for kissing at a mini golf course. And they were charged with "sexual harassment of a minor." So like, if we contextualize these things together and DeSantis’ like war on trans people, we can sort of see where this is going is that he does probably want to make it legal to enforce the death penalty against trans people. He also signed a bill to end unanimous jury requirements in death penalty sentences.
Margaret 1:03:46
Sick.
Inmn 1:03:48
Now you just need an 8-4 in favor, which is a huge, huge spread. You know? Yeah, this is gonna go great. He was also involved in a car accident this morning in Tennessee and he was…not hurt.
Margaret 1:04:08
Dammit. That’s fucked up.
Inmn 1:04:10
Right. In some other fun headlines, Robert Kennedy claimed at a press conference that COVID may have been ethnically targeted to spare the Jews in a absolutely absurd brand of conspiracy theories against Jewish people. Student debt forgiveness: people will be expected to pay back their refunded payments according to the student debt forgiveness being repealed.
Margaret 1:04:47
Have they met the blood and the stone? The ability to withdraw one from the other…
Inmn 1:04:57
Supreme Court ruling was like kind of…Not like overturned but an old ruling was over…like, not used in a case right now around stalking, where it’s going to be a lot easier for people who are stalking people, especially on the internet, to not get in trouble for it. And it kind of boils down to this idea there that the more deluded the stalker, the more protected the stalking will be.
Margaret 1:05:31
It’s like pleading insanity, kind of?
Inmn 1:05:34
Yeah. Being like, "This person was unaware of the impacts that it could have had on this person."
Margaret 1:05:40
Classic thing that should inform the law.
Inmn 1:05:48
It’s weirdly situated like that to protect people like at protests, who might scream like, like, "I’m gonna fucking kill so-and-so," you know, in like a heightened state, and then that being weighed against that that person probably didn’t mean that. But, it being used like that to protect people threatening to kill people on the internet while stalking them is, you know, clearly, clearly these things aren’t the same thing.
Brooke 1:06:25
Laws are bad.
Inmn 1:06:26
Puberty blockers in England were disallowed on a large scale outside of exceptional cases. So like, trans kids in Europe will no longer be allowed to access puberty blockers.
Margaret 1:06:43
You mean, the UK. Technically no longer Europe, thanks to their right wing move to separate themselves. Yes, does not make it any better for the UK kids. I’m sorry. I’m being a pedant. I apologize.
Brooke 1:06:54
Yay, terf Island.
Inmn 1:06:59
Putin signed new legislation on like this past Monday, I think, which marked the final step in outlawing gender affirming procedures. So basically, you can’t get any gender affirming, like surgical procedures in Russia any more. And the bill was unanimously approved by the Russian Parliament, which bans any medical interventions aimed at changing the sex of a person as well as changing any one’s gender marker on their documents. The only exception will be for medical intervention to treat congenital anomalies, which I think probably refers to like, assigning intersex people genders. It also annuls marriages in which one person has changed their gender and bars, transgender people from becoming foster or adoptive parents. And yeah, so Russia is even more terrifying.
Margaret 1:08:03
Starting to not like Russia.
Brooke 1:08:07
Starting to?
Margaret 1:08:08
I don’t know. Putin starting to seem like kind of a…I’m starting to develop a negative impression. [sarcastically]
Inmn 1:08:17
Yeah. And, you know, just to give people in the United States an idea of where we’re headed, this was all in the name of "Upholding traditional family values." That was the main cause for this legislation.
Brooke 1:08:31
TFV. TFV.
Inmn 1:08:34
And my last little headlines, which I wanted to connect to talking about heat wave stuff earlier, a nine year old migrant died after having seizures due to heat related illness in Arizona. This past month, there were at least 10 recorded migrant deaths in southern Arizona due to heat related complications. But, Border Patrol claims to have rescued 45 people from the scorching heat of the desert. But interestingly, in Ajo, Arizona, which is like western Arizona, there was a…It was like 114 degrees outside and border patrol had 50 migrants in custody who they were keeping in an outdoor chain-link pen with like, no shade or anything. So, they have the people that they rescued then put in life threatening conditions,
Margaret 1:09:40
Starting to not like the United States Government either. Yeah, starting to feel on par with Russian governments. I know you’re supposed to pick one or the other party. Yeah, it’s bad. Everything’s bad.
Inmn 1:09:56
Really bad. And I want to get more into the southwest and border patrol and this issue another time. But…Stuff’s really bad right now. So yeah, that’s my headlines.
Brooke 1:10:11
Margaret, you’re the optimistic one today. What do we do? What do we do in this terrible world,
Margaret 1:10:17
We build resilient communities, network them together, teach each other things, try to limit the amount of gatekeeping we do within those communities. We value conflict resolution as high as we can. We value survival skills and more traditional forms of preparedness, and we support a diversity of actions against all of the negative things that are happening in the world, whether or not we believe those actions are strategic. We support any action that falls within our bounds of ethics, including people who are like annoying church liberals, or people who are like taking things too far with the gasoline and the timers made out of kitchen timers. We support the wide range of it and we try to live our lives as best we can. We recognize that winning is not a condition. It’s not like a win state, right? There’s not a state in which we win. But instead, there’s a reason we say, "Winning at life." We don’t say, "Won at life." We say that we are in the process of winning. And when we fight, and when we build, and when we love one another we win. We live the best lives that we can despite everything that’s happening and we work really hard to help other people live the best lives that they can. Was that a rhetorical question? I’m not sure.
Brooke 1:11:34
No, I do feel a little bit…No, honestly, I feel a little bit better now. I really do. Love wins. We win with love. Love and care. And the thing that goes on if me being me as a nurturing, loving person.
Inmn 1:11:50
In living like we’re preparing for the world to die, should we also live like the Empire could be dying?
Margaret 1:12:02
Yeah. Yeah, I mean, like, capitalism has proved a sturdy beast, but it can certainly be slain. And if anything can slay it, it is the nightmare that is coming that we will all figure out how to come together to handle. Yay. Good. That a good end note? Anyone got more headlines?
Brooke 1:12:34
No? Well, no. I’m too sad.
Margaret 1:12:42
Well, if you enjoyed this podcast, you can tell your friends about it. And you can more than that, get together with your friends and talk about what the fuck we’re gonna do, right? Because it is a good idea for us to get together and talk about what we’re going to do because you’re talking heads on the radio podcast land can’t tell you what to do. You. You and your friends decide what risks are appropriate based on what’s happening, and what you all want to do with the time that is available to you. But, one of the things you can do with the time that’s available too, is support this podcast by supporting us on Patreon at patreon.com/strangersinatangledwilderness. We put out new features every month. And we have multiple podcasts, including one called Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness and one called Anarcho Geek Power Hour, and one called Live Like the World is Dying, which you probably know is the one that you’re listening to right now if you made it this far. And if you become one of our like super special $20 month backers you–I mean, all of the backers make this fucking possible, right? They pay for the transcription, so we can try and keep this as accessible as possible. They pay for the editing, which allows us to actually come out weekly. And it helps get all of the interviews out that we can because what some of us have chosen to do with this time is to try and spread this kind of message, right? We don’t currently get paid for coming on here and talking. I’m not opposed to us becoming paid. But in particular, we want to thank Lord Harken and Trixter. Let’s just go back to Lord Harken really quick. That’s a sick name. And Trixster. And Princess Miranda–these are all such good fucking names–and BenBen, and Anonymous–Can’t go wrong with Anonymous–and Funder–which is funny–And Jans, and Oxalis, which is a plant, and Janice & O’Dell, and Paige–I’m going to run out of things to say about these things, these names–and Aly, and paparound, and Boise Mutual Aid–thanks for being a mutual aid organization–Milicia, and theo, and Hunter, and Shawn, and SJ, and Paige again, and Mikki, and Nicole, and David, and Dana, and Chelsea, and Kat J., and Starro, and Jenipher, and Eleanor, and Kirk, and Sam, and Chris, and Michaiah, and of course, here’s our longest term funder, who is a pit bull, Hoss the dog.
Inmn 1:15:08
Thank you Hoss, the dog,
Margaret 1:15:10
And we’ll talk to you all next week. Bye bye for now.
This week on Live Like the World is Dying, Inmn is joined by Carrie and Korin from the Glia project to talk about some of their projects and specifically to talk about why 3D-printed medical devices are really cool and how they help get medical devices to places where they are not otherwise easily accessible. They talk about Glia’s work on 3D-printed tourniquets, stethoscopes, otoscopes, and dialysis machines. Also, please give them $5 million. You won’t regret it.
Inmn 00:15
Hello, and welcome to live Like the World is Dying, your podcast for what feels like the end times. I’m your host Inmn Neruin. And this week we’re going to be talking with Glia, a rad organization that designs 3D printed medical devices so that no matter where you are, you can access basic and quality medical devices. But first, this podcast is a proud member of the Channel Zero Network of anarchists podcasts. And here’s a jingle from another show on the network. Doo doo doo doo doo. [Singing a simple melody]
Inmn 01:17
And we’re back. Thanks so much, y’all, for coming on the podcast today. Would y’all like to introduce yourselves with your name, pronouns, nd what you what you’re here to talk about or what your role is in Glia.
Carrie 01:45
Okay, I’ll go first. My name is Carrie Wakem and she/her and my role at Glia is executive director. It sounds very flashy. It’s not. We’re all team players here at Glia.
Korin 02:00
My name is Korin, my pronouns are she and they. I’m a volunteer with the Glia project, particularly focused on the tourniquets, and specifically with regards to manufacturing instructions and quality control documentation.
Inmn 02:13
Cool. And would you want to kind of introduce what Glia is?
Carrie 02:20
Absolutely. So Glia is a medical device manufacturing company. We do lots of research and we build and research devices that are considered high quality, open source, and at cost. And that’s sort of the stuff that we do.
Inmn 02:42
How did Glia come to get started? Also, does Glia stand for anything? Is it an acronym? Or is it just a fun word?
Carrie 02:50
Everybody asks that question about the acronym and how we became Glia or where the name came from and really there’s no interesting story behind it. I think the original team on the Glia project just basically said, "What should we call this?" Somebody throw it the name Glia. And then it stuck as far as I know. But that was before my time. I can absolutely speak to a bit of the history of Glia and how it came to be. So, our founder Tarek Loubani is in emergency medicine physician in London, Ontario in Canada. And he works frequently in the Gaza Strip. And quite a few years ago he was there during the war and he was responding to a large amount of casualties. And he was in a room with a whole bunch of patients that needed to be seen. And when he looked around, he saw that there were only two stethoscopes being used in that room and one of them was around his own neck. And literally people had blood on their ears because they were putting their ear to the chest of patients to hear if there were heartbeats. And it occurred to him that some other places in the world don’t have access to even basic medical tools like stethoscopes. And then after that trip, he was home and he was playing with one of his nephews and he was using the little toy plastic stethoscope doctor kit–I think Fisher Price used to make one when I was a kid. Anyway, that’s who made one. I’m sure there’s a lot of knock offs now. But, they have a little toy stethoscope. And he put it to his ears and he was listening and he was like, "This thing actually works. You can actually hear a heartbeat through this plastic toy." And he just had an interest in 3D printing at the time and he thought to himself, "I wonder if I could create a stethoscope using a 3d printer that would be more accessible, lower cost, and hopefully as high a quality as the Littmann cardiology iii, which is what our stethoscope now compares to. So Glia does have a 3D printed stethoscope today. It was our first product that was developed and it’s based off of that experience of our founder.
Inmn 05:00
Cool. Is that is that…[incoherent starting and stopping and stuttering] That makes sense how that would prompt an organization like Glia. But it is…That’s really grim that that is how these organizations start.
Carrie 05:15
Yeah. Unfortunately. Though, those are the stories that probably motivate people to do something about these scenarios, right? So, you see a problem and you want to solve it
Inmn 05:27
Is Glia, like, I guess….So from there, this person started 3D printing stethoscopes and then how did the larger structure of Glia kind of start from there? Was it like people just being like, "Oh, that’s really cool. Could we also make this other thing?" or?
Carrie 05:43
Um, yeah, so a lot of what we’ve done…There’s parts of it that’s have been strategic and parts of our projects that have been organic. The first stethoscope, I believe, was developed in 2014. I didn’t come into the project full time myself until 2017. So this is a little bit before my time. Stethoscopes were the thing that we were sort of working on, at the moment that I joined Glia myself. And we started with the stethoscope specifically because it’s an iconic device, right? Like everybody recognizes it. So, there was some strategy into picking a device to get started on the topic of "How can an open source stethoscope really changed the world? How can that provide better access to quality health care?" It’s a talking point and it still is to this day. From there, though, it was the experiences of the people that were working or associated with the project–collaborators, we’ve had a lot of collaborators, a lot of volunteers over the years–that sort of drove the direction of some of these projects. And the one that Korin mentioned at the beginning when she introduced herself was the tourniquet project. And that was actually originally developed by the engineers that were working for Glia back in 2017, a group there. And they saw a need for tourniquets in the Gaza Strip. They just couldn’t access this type of device. And as we know in Gaza, there’s constantly the threat of war. So, they needed to be able to come up with something that they could get access to. And so they designed this tourniquet–and we can probably get into that a little bit later–but that was something that organically happened from our remote office. Other projects like our otoscope. We have a 3d printed otoscope. This project was literally designed by a guy that was attending audiology school. So a gentleman that was in his early 20s had a fondness again for 3D printing and he was sitting in class going, "Why does an otoscope cost $400. I’m a student. I’m on a student budget. I can’t access this general piece of equipment." And, and we’re not talking about the Welch Allyn otoscopes that are attached in your doctor’s office. We’re talking about just you know, a plain handhold regular tool to look into somebody’s ear. And so this guy, his name’s Frankie Talarico, he actually sought us out and he was like, "I want to make this otoscope. And I want to just design it quickly on some software. And I want to make it open source so that anyone else can access that source code and copy it from anywhere else in the world." And he looked out to see who else was doing things like him. And it just so happened, we were in the same exact city, literally like a 10 minute drive from each other. And he reached out and he said, "I have this device that I’ve been working on. I want it perfected. You guys seem to be a little bit more ahead of of the game in terms of open source medical devices. How can we help each other?" And so he brought this idea, this concept, this design. We had it, you know, sort of perfected in a couple of different versions. And now what you see on our website is working a portable otoscope for…It’s $100 for that device and we’re hoping to improve our manufacturing process in the next year when we have people like Korin involved to help those processes get a little bit more efficient, we can lower the price even further. So its cost right now is 1/4 of what it does for the comparable gold standard model on the market.
Inmn 09:35
Wow. Yeah, that is…I mean, that’s a significant difference. If someone downloaded it and printed it themselves, would it be cheaper for them to print it themselves then?
Carrie 09:49
Yeah, so yeah, in a sense it would be. So there’s…So what Glia does is we take our designs that we make–all of our medical devices are located in our public repository on GitHub–and people can access those files and make them themselves. So there’s no, you know, limit to what people can do with these things. They can redevelop them and make them better. That’s what we really love is when people come into our feedback cycles and we see improvements for devices. That’s one benefit of having it open source. But people certainly can take the device and make it. And in fact, if somebody copies what we’re doing, that is a success to us. That’s what we want to happen here, which is probably much different from many of the other medical device companies you think you might know. We measure our success based on how much it’s replicated. And so somebody can take that device, they can make it on their printer. It really does cost cents to print with the plastic that we’re using. There’s a few electronic components and batteries. There’s a lens that you need to source. So that might be you know…You could get that somewhere between $5 and $20 USD, to get a lens that goes into this. Not very expensive pieces. And then it’s your time of putting it together. But I must say, the one caveat in all of this being, is that if you are building and replicating medical devices and using them on patients, you have to have proper compliance in your area. So Glia holds a Medical Device Establishment license, which is a Health Canada license that we have to make sure that all of our devices that are going out are safe to use on patients. And we would encourage anyone else to do the same thing if they were really making these things to use on patients, to sell to others to use on patients, etc.
Inmn 11:47
Yeah, I was gonna ask, not in like a skeptical way or anything, but like in a….How do the devices that y’all make compare to professional medical devices that are produced in factories? Which I mean, this is just…Yeah, it doesn’t seem all that different, just a different means of manufacturing….
Carrie 12:10
Great question. I love this question. So what Glia is trying to do is to make our devices as close in functionality to the gold standard devices that you would see. So we don’t compare ourselves to cheap plastic shit that’s built elsewhere, or knock offs, or crap that you can find all over Amazon, you know. We want to make sure that we are building high quality devices. So we do real research backed by real institutions on that. And then we publish real papers in reputable journals about the research that we do. So, the idea here is to make something in a different way that lowers the cost, increases the access, but does not touch the standard of quality. So quality is number one for us. And then alongside quality is safety. So that’s where the question of compliance sort of comes in. We encourage anyone that’s producing medical devices to make sure they understand proper compliance in their area. And really in the world right now there are four main places to get compliance. One is Health Canada, which is where we…our home offices is in Canada. There’s also the FDA. There is one–and I’m not sure of the exact name–but there’s one for the European Union that qualifies. And then I believe there’s one in Australia as well. So for the countries that don’t have these types of governing bodies, where often these devices are needed most, they would follow compliance from one of those other countries that provide that service. And if they are then you could trust that you’re being safe with what you’re doing.
Inmn 14:03
Cool. Cool. Yeah. So in contrast, y’all are producing these medical devices for very little money, but it is without the sacrifice of quality and so it’s…like, is that kind of…[starts over] Does that offer a good alternative to if people are like, "Oh, I need cheap medical supplies. I will go buy them on Amazon."
Carrie 14:33
Yeah, I wouldn’t recommend doing that specifically, but it doesn’t mean there aren’t good quality medical devices on Amazon. Okay, so I can just say that for sure. The difference…So the point of this all is to make a sustainable business model where people get paid fair wages to build build high quality devices. And the point here is not to gouge people that need these devices to improve their health. What Glia is trying to do, and say, and change in the culture of the way our health system operates today is that nobody should be making money on the backs of people’s health care. And so we should charge what it costs to produce these devices. That’s what the customer should pay at the end, not that price plus investments–like paying off investors–paying off people so that they can have their Lamborghinis and their yachts and go out and do all these things, right? Like, this is not the place for that. If you want to make a designer t-shirt and sell that to someone and they want to pay, you know, $500 for a t-shirt, that’s up to them. That’s not something they need. But people need access to health care and there’s a lot of inequity in our world today with accessing even these simple devices as I said in my very first example of how the company came to be. Like why is it in 20–I believe that happened in 2012–why was it in 2012 that stethoscopes weren’t available in a place in this world? Like quality stethoscopes. And that just doesn’t make any sense. And the three of us, we may have had enough privilege to be able to understand what a stethoscope was from the minute we could walk or talk–thanks to Fisher Price too–but also, you know, like it’s not an issue for us to really get some simple tools, but that’s not everywhere in the world.
Inmn 16:54
How then do devices make it from y’all to places like Gaza? Or anywhere where people who need to be able to access them? Yeah, how does that that flow path work?
Carrie 17:11
This can happen in a couple of different ways. Our preferred method is for people to adopt what we’re doing and do it themselves. You know, this is…I was talking a little bit about the measurement of success for Glia and one of those things is getting people to replicate what we’re doing. And so if they decide, "I need access to a particular device, anywhere in the world," it really, for our devices right now, the way they stand, it’s mostly about having access to a quality desktop printer, and having the source code, having a little bit of expertise, proper compliance, and you’ve got the recipe to start building your own devices. So whether that be 100 devices or 100,000 devices, you can really do that based on this model. It is scalable. I mean, but it’s not meant to be massively scalable, right? It’s about keeping the decentralized manufacturing model alive and only filling the need in communities as they need things, not over producing. You know, like, we don’t want to throw a whole bunch of crap into the landfill. That’s not one of our objectives. Our objective is to fill the needs of the people who need what they need. Now Glia…That doesn’t mean that Glia doesn’t ship things. You know, like we will…Some people can’t, or don’t have interest, or don’t want to, or it’s not feasible. An example of that is sending tourniquets over to Ukraine for some response there. There are…We also had an initiative–we’re working on it again this year–but a couple of years ago we sent out 200 stethoscopes to medical students graduating from their class. So fourth year medical students still did not have access in Kenya and Zambia to a simple stethoscope. So, we worked with a group over there called Myka Medic–or sorry, they’re in the UK–and we collaborated with them to send these stethoscopes over. They weren’t necessarily interested in that moment in starting their own lab, getting proper compliance, you know, getting all those tools. But getting that conversation started by sending over a couple of hundred units means that we can talk about those things in the future. Now we have these stethoscopes And now, when something happens to one of these stethoscopes, how do we repair it? Right? And that’s what’s beautiful about the model if you actually do, you know, invest in a $1,400 (Canadian) printer and teach somebody a little bit about what we’re doing, give them the access to be able to build it themselves, and then they can go ahead and make more, repair what they have, you know? It just makes it just makes sense.
Korin 18:29
You mentioned a little bit about Gaza, specifically. Those are produced in Gaza. And the reason for that was because there was a dire need for them. And attempting to get medical supplies through that blockade is very difficult without paying exorbitant fees. They would cost…To get a CAT tourniquet here in the US cost about $30 and to get it into Gaza would be about $40 USD even if you’re buying in massive bulk quantities.
Carrie 20:23
For a single tourniquet?
Korin 20:37
Yeah, about $40 each.
Inmn 20:52
Oh, my God,
Carrie 20:53
Yeah, that’s, a lot of money in Gaza to pay for medical devices. And not only that, but there’s another huge issue we can bring in, if it’s time to do that, which is talking a little bit about donation culture and how a place like Gaza, especially, deals…I mean, I’ve learned a lot about this, especially in the last year, but the health system in Gaza right now is reliant on donations so much so that it’s hard for them to steer out of any other path. And they can’t even, you know, fathom the idea sometimes about being empowered to build their own stuff because they’re so used to receiving basically other people’s secondhand items. But what this does is it creates this dumping culture where devices will get dumped into an area because another place doesn’t need it. So they’ll say, "Oh, who wants this? We don’t want to throw it away. So let’s go put it somewhere where people can’t have access." So there’s a whole bunch of problems with that system, especially in Gaza. One of the things is they get a lot of stuff they don’t need or don’t want. They can’t store it. They have inventory crisis constantly because of all of this dumping that happens of things they don’t need or don’t want. And then they become reliant on something. So for example, one of the ideas that Glia has down the pipeline is creating a dialysis machine. And we don’t really want to reinvent dialysis. What we want to do is to take an existing type of dialysis machine and build an adapter to fit on that existing machine that will speak to any one of the disposables that may be used for the purpose of dialysis. So right now, those things are manufactured in a way that if XYZ company makes it, you have to get XYZ disposables to be compatible with that machine in order to use it. So, what’s happening in Gaza is that there is literally a gymnasium full of dialysis machines that are unusable and another gymnasium full of disposables that are unusable because those two units are not compatible. So Glia’s idea for a device–now this is going to be a $5 million project and you know, if any of your listeners have access to that type of cash, we would absolutely love to begin this project–but, you know, we want to build an adapter that will speak to those two pieces so that people can actually use the stuff that is donated to them, that is given to them, because it…And you can imagine, so now they have storage issues and they become reliant on these people that are feeding them the donations, right? So it’s just there’s so many problems with that. Now, if you look at what Glia is trying to do, we have an office in Gaza. We have an office with several printers running. We build our own turkeys locally there. So we build our own medical devices there. So they’re already there, you know, and people can purchase or use what they need. They don’t need to rely on somebody else’s handouts to get them in there. And there’s a lot more that we could do there as well. But it’s difficult. It’s difficult to even negotiate with those governing bodies that make those decisions in Gaza because they’re so used to dealing with these donations and that’s kind of the system they’re relying on right now.
Inmn 24:33
Yeah. I cannot imagine being a medical practitioner in Gaza and being, "Well, we need dialysis machines," and having an entire gymnasium full of dialysis machines that you can’t use that. Wow, I hope that y’all get to start that one soon.
Carrie 24:52
And like Korin was saying, it’s extremely difficult to get things in. I worked on a project in 2016 I want to say–yes 2016– where I moved 10 dialysis machines from Northern Ontario. So for your US listeners, Ontario is in central Canada and northern Ontario is somewhat remote. Okay. And this is going to fill all the stereotypes that people think of Canada right now what I’m going to say. Where I moved these, I work with a nephrologist and he wanted me to take–he did some work in Gaza–and he saw that there were some machines that were at this northern Ontario hospital that were compatible with some of the disposables that were already in Gaza. And they weren’t being used by us. So he said, "Let’s pay to get these 10 machines that are basically obsolete for Canadians." Okay, "Let’s move them to Gaza." This project took me nearly 12 months to get these in. They had to come from this hospital via Ice River, onto a train, onto another train, onto a plane, and then perhaps a ship–I can’t remember, it was a while ago–I don’t know if we had it on a ship to get across. But then of course, it had to wait. To get this in through the blockade was terribly difficult. But we were able to get the Ministry of Health in Gaza on board and, you know, they let them in eventually. It also cost us $10,000 Canadian in shipping. So, what are we doing here, folks? This makes no sense. And all just because "Oh, somebody donated some disposables and they don’t talk to any of the machines we have here. So let’s dig out these ones out of the basement of northern Ontario and move those over." You know, it’s just so frustrating because think about how far $10,000 would have gone in terms of buying any type of medical device if they had the market to do so in Gaza. It would be…It’s just there’s nothing that can can really be said about that. It’s…
Inmn 27:15
Yeah, that is maddening. I know that…I mean, not to relate things back to things in the United States, but I remember when, you know, early, early COVID times, there was a serious lack of ventilators and all the car companies were going on strike to have the car company factories make ventilators instead. And I don’t really know where I’m going with this, but just maybe for people in the United States to think about a comparable or semi-comparable situation of like absurdity that we have all these means of production and we’re using them to make cars or we’re using them to make stuff that people don’t need instead of getting basic medical…having basic medical supplies be accessible to people who need basic medical supplies. I don’t know, it just it hurts my brain a lot.
Korin 28:30
Not to, again, not to directly compare these two things because they are different, but even here in the US, you know, glucometers, the things that are used to measure your blood sugar, the the strip and I think the lancet and the unit itself, same kind of razor and blades model where one does not work with every other type of glucometer. So, it’s exactly like manufacturers just love to do the whole razor and blades thing with people’s health because at the end of the day, if it make some money, they will do it.
Inmn 29:07
Yeah, yeah. And that is the wild thing too when I think about it, is that all these medical industries, they exist to make people money not to necessarily get people medical supplies.
Carrie 29:23
Yeah, yeah. It’s sadly true. And so…So I guess the question is then what can you do about that to change that culture? And to start thinking about this in a way that’s more about sharing what you know versus holding it tight to your vest to serve yourself? How do you really serve other people with the information that you have? And so that’s what Glia is really trying to do is just to show that there are…there’s a different business model for this, folks. It doesn’t mean that people need to be making no money or that it needs to be charitable. There’s a system that could be in place where people just get paid to build stuff fairly. Maybe even just add a little bit to that so it’s a nice cushy job, you know, like, give them extra vacation time, or give them just a couple of extra bonuses per year for just being great people. And you can do all of that and not gouge people at the end for all that that upfront R&D (Research and Development) that’s done at the beginning. Because that’s kind of, you know, fluffy, in and of itself, all of the R&D. We really don’t need to redo R&D every time we do it if we just share the information we learned the last time we did it. Right? So why are we reinventing the wheel? Like really why did Glia have to come in and take a device like the stethoscope–that has seen no improvements since the 1970s in terms of its functionality, or design, or anything–and say we have to start from scratch and build this? Because, you know, like we took something that was off patent and looked at that design and replicated it. But why are we hiding behind patents here? You know, like it doesn’t…it doesn’t really make much sense when people need health care. Okay, I have an example. I will share a personal example. I talk about this sometimes when I give presentations. So, my personal experience isn’t actually about medical devices, it’s about pharmaceuticals. And I think the thing is, is that people in the US and Canada…There’s a difference between the relation for a lay person in the US and in North America, especially, probably other places in the world, too, but I know here. I know our neighbors here. And everybody in North America has a relationship with pharmaceuticals, whereas not everybody in North America has a direct relationship with medical devices. Medical practitioners do. Medical administrators do or people that are making decisions on purchases, or people that are building these things. But not necessarily. Like my mother doesn’t have any personal connection to a stethoscope, even though I’m sure her physician uses it on her every time she goes and sees her. But I think the thing about pharmaceuticals is that everybody’s accessing this. So we all know about how much of an upcharge there is on certain medicines. And so for example, I have a sister who has a very serious heart condition, and she needs to take medicine in Canada that it costs $40,000 a year for her lung health. And without that she wouldn’t be here. So because of where we live in the world, she’s able to access that through a community, like through the Trillium program that’s in Canada that supports people who, who can’t afford it. And she can’t, you know, she’s on disability here in Canada because she can’t work because of her condition. It’s quite severe. And without this life saving medication. But $40,000 a year? How on earth would anyone without a health care system like we have in Canada be able to live? You would die. You would die, right? So what are we doing when we don’t have working dialysis machines, you know, that are not talking to each other. People need dialysis or they die. A lot of people need dialysis. And so the thing is is that the technology exists, the manufacturing of these things can exist. This is not like brand new science. This is stuff that people can do now. We’re not talking about building a dialysis machine on Mars. We’re talking about just building it here on Earth. And then the problem here is that, you know, but this one has to be compatible with that one. Anyway. It’s it’s just a mess.
Inmn 34:18
I know that a big project that y’all have currently is tourniquets. And corn, I was wondering if you could tell us a little bit about that project.
Korin 34:28
Yeah, the Glia tourniquet, I believe, started in Gaza as well. And that was due to necessity. This happens very frequently, where Israel will start waging war on on the Gaza Strip and that causes a lot of casualties. And due to the blockade, it’s very difficult to get like commercially manufactured tourniquets in and so the solution that came up–and this was before I joined the project–but the solution that happened there was to make this tourniquet that can be 3D printed and sewn together with locally available materials. And that’s…It works. Yeah.
Inmn 35:10
That’s awesome. And I know you’re saying the price comparison of like If you wanted to buy one, it’s like $30-40 bucks and then like to get it into Gaza, it would be a lot more?
Korin 35:24
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, getting it in there, from what I’ve heard from Tarek, it’s about $40 US if you have a bulk order to get it into Gaza and the time that that would take is variable. Depends on a number of factors. Here in the United States, you can get them for about $30 give or take. Some models are more expensive, but that’s about what you’re looking for. The Glia tourniquet, I think we’ve run the numbers a little bit. Depending on where you source your materials, how you do it, in theory, you could manufacture it for about $7.50. But that is before any compliance or overhead. That’s just materials and assuming you have the equipment ready to make it.
Inmn 35:24
Yeah, cool. I guess beyond the obvious of like putting the means into people’s hands to produce their medical supplies, like why is tourniquets a big deal?
Korin 35:43
So just in general, what they’re used for, I guess, for folks who don’t know, it’s basically a big strap that gets tightened around a limb and it occludes all blood flow to that. So in the event of like a massive hemorrhage, a massive amount of bleeding, these can save lives. These have been gaining popularity over the last, I want to say about 20 years, I think it’s largely due to the forever wars, unfortunately. That’s where a lot of trauma medicine winds up coming out of. And so there’s been a huge resurgence of interest in them. And at this point, they are now very popular and they’re very much used to stop massive hemorrhage. For non military applications, there’s any number of them here in the US. We have to contend with a large number of mass shootings. So aside from mass shootings, there’s a number of other situations where you might need a tourniquet. You can have accidents with cooking, accidents with knives, or power tools, lawnmowers, chainsaws, things of that nature, natural disasters, which are unfortunately becoming more common. Those are all situations where folks might need tourniquets,
Carrie 37:25
I would also add to that industrial accidents and a lot of back country activities. So things like your friends in the north doing a lot of snowmobiling, those types of people, a lot of those types of sports have been reaching out to us with interest in the tourniquet as well. So it’s becoming an item that really should be in every first-aid kit. And one of Glia’s goals in the next, let’s say year to two years, is to start diving in a little bit more into the US market with these items and making sure they’re in every public space. So for example, every school needs one of these tourniquets in the US. Every mall. But even in Canada, where we don’t have as many mass shootings, these things are useful for all those other reasons. If you work in a facility–lots of people still work online, so you know, machines are doing stuff for us, but there’s a lot of people doing factory work–tourniquets need to exist there.
Inmn 38:27
Yeah, yeah. I remember seeing this kind of shift. As you know, in 2020, when there was a lot of gun violence happening at large protests and stuff, and just like seeing people…everyone had tourniquets strapped to their belts and stuff, but I also remember talking to people who were like, "Oh, I’m maybe not going to go to the thing because I don’t have a tourniquet and spending that much money on a tourniquet right now sounds overwhelming.
Carrie 39:08
That’s so interesting. Yeah, so it’s becoming way more commonplace I think, with tourniquets, and it’s becoming something that your regular EMS isn’t just carrying because the other big issue with tourniquets and why the hill is so steep for Glia is not just all of the R&D, and the manufacturing, and the governing body approval–which I think we might get into a bit–but you know, all the certifications and things that you might need for these types of devices, or what you would assume you may need, aside from all of those tricky things, the steepest hill for us is that lay people don’t know how to apply tourniquets properly. So, unless you’re a trained person in the use of tourniquets, then it’s hard to just put a tourniquet in a public space and know how to use it. So, part of Glia’s endeavor is never just to make a device and be like, "Oh, we made our device. That’s it. Here you go." No, no, no, we have to do the full package. So likely, you know, we might seek out educational companies that are interested in open source as well and provide educational material to people so that you can become fluent in using a device like this.
Inmn 40:28
Cool. Korin, I know we were talking a little off-air about this, but you mentioned that–I guess maybe the right word is compliance–for civilian grade tourniquets doesn’t really exist or something?
Korin 40:49
There is no standard for a tourniquet. So the way I actually got into the project was Tarek Loubani did an interview on It Could Happen Here, where he talked about 3D printed tourniquets. And I said, "Well, that’s very interesting." And so I go, when I look through the GitHub and look through all the resources and couldn’t find like, ‘What standard does this meet? How is this being tested?" And after some further back and forth and discussion, it turns out, there isn’t a standard for tourniquets. That does not exist. ASTM, which is a standards making body, is I think, working on one, but it’s not released yet. And it’s extremely new, if that ever does come out. There literally just is no standard that you can say, "Well, I’ve done this. And so therefore, it’s a good tourniquet." Yeah. And, the way you kind of determine whether or not your tourniquet works is, I think, largely by comparison. And there is some testing that’s done, but it’s by comparison to what’s being used currently. And does it work as well as that?
Carrie 41:56
Yeah, I was just gonna add to that again, like Glia doesn’t just stop at like, "Oh, let’s take a medical device and reproduce it or build it again." We have to do…we have to go to all the lengths to make sure that this thing can get out there and people can use it safely. So one of the things we needed to do was to partner with somebody that was willing to design a tester for the type of tourniquets that we were making. And that’s been a massive project. And actually, it was designed by the Free Appropriate Sustainable Technology Research Group at Western University. And they just published the tester that they developed to test not only the Glia tourniquet, but any tourniquet that works in the way that the Glia tourniquet works. So now we can start developing some sort of standard because when you make a device like this and then you realize that the only thing that really gave it any clout was some panel that decided that these particular tourniquets were the one we were going to use and then because of mass production built a reputation, even though, you know, the CAT tourniquet, actually, in the field is only something like 55% effective when it’s applied. And it’s the most well known gold standard tourniquet out there today on the market that people trust the most. But you know, half the time you’re going to put that on, it’s going to fail. So you, Glia dives into, like, why does it fail? What is the test being done on that? Is it actually the education of the user? Does the user know how to apply the tourniquet? You know, we don’t we don’t just stop at, "Oh, here’s the device now for the market. You can buy it. Do what you will with it," you know, like all those other checkboxes are applicable.
Inmn 43:47
Yeah. Yeah. Is like…I guess, because…Is the CAT VII, is that the tourniquet that like the military uses, or do they?
Korin 43:58
I think this is maybe a good time to explain what COTCCC is if that?
Korin 44:03
Yeah, okay, there is this panel called COTCC, Committee on Tactical Combat Casualty Care. It’s a military panel. And I’m actually gonna quote from their website, it says, "The Committee on Tactical Combat Casualty Care is the pre hospital arm of the joint trauma system for the Department of Defense." So what it is, is it’s about 40 something folks who are various types of medical professionals, or some doctors, surgeons, nurses, combat medics, special operations medics, things like that. And these folks, at some point, some years ago–I don’t have the exact article here in front of me–they evaluated some number of tourniquets, and they said, "Okay, here’s, based on what we’ve been using in combat, and based on our examination of them, we recommend the following tourniquets," and they had the Combat Application Tourniquet generations Six and Seven by North American Rescue, that’s the CAT by NAR. There was also the SOF-T-Wide by TacMed Solutions. And there was a third one that’s a pneumatic tourniquet that we don’t need to talk about. And so for the longest time, just those two tourniquets were the only ones that this this panel said you should buy. Now, that makes plenty of sense. They’re a military panel. They are interested in serving the military. They’re interested in military procurement systems. So, they want to go to a company who can produce an enormous quantity of them and certify that they are good and will work and supply them in bulk. That’s what they’re interested in. They are not so much interested in civilian applications. That’s not their concern because they serve the Department of Defense, right? So, that’s their concern. That’s why they had only those, like those three tourniquets because that’s all they needed. Now, more recently, they released another journal article in which they–which when I say more recently, I mean, it’s still several years ago at this point–where they expanded that list of recommended tourniquets substantially. But they don’t evaluate every single tourniquet on the market. A lot of their recommendations are based on combat experience. So, if the tourniquet hasn’t seen combat, they’re not necessarily going to recommend it. And there’s no other things like that. At the end of the day, they are still a military panel interested in making decisions for and about the military.
Inmn 44:03
Oh, yeah.
Inmn 46:37
Yeah, yeah. So Glia is kind of offering like a much better alternative for civilian use tourniquets than currently exists?
Korin 46:49
Yeah. And that’s actually one of the design criteria in the Glia tourniquet was that it works better on children. From the experience of folks, medical professionals in Gaza, they found that the CAT tourniquet didn’t necessarily work as well on people who had very small limbs. So young children in general. One of the design criteria that then came out of that was that it works better on children. So some of the design decisions on the Glia tourniquet, particularly the separation of the backplate and the clip, came as a result of wanting to make the tourniquet work better for children.
Inmn 47:29
Can I ask you all a kind of, I guess, maybe a little bit funny, like kind of a theoretical question?
Carrie 47:35
Course.
Inmn 47:36
Cool. Or just some things that are going through my head when I think about, like Glia’s project and open source pharmaceuticals and open source medical equipment in general is that if we start seeing more parts of society, kind of like collapse or breakdown or like infrastructure breakdown more, is this open source medical equipment something that is going to be useful for people like in, I don’t know, in 10 years–God, I hope it’s more than 10 years–when the North American governments collapse and we’re in some kind of hellish civil war and people are like, "Oh, medical…like the military has stuff. And that’s it."
Carrie 48:27
Yeah, I mean, I think the nice thing about the model that Glia is developing is that it’s really adaptable by many different types of scenarios. So it’s as relevant for what you’ve just said, and what you’re just talking about now, as it is for some refined medical school somewhere in the world where they just want to do some good, and they want to lower costs, and they want to build their own medical devices and send them out to all their students for the incoming class that year. You know, we can set a lab up here in London, Ontario at our medical school that exists here and have those students build their own medical devices and have proper–as long as they have proper compliance. I’m not going to stop saying that–as long as they have proper compliance, then they can build their own devices. And the thing that’s beneficial about that is that then you get up-and-coming medical practitioners thinking about their medical devices in a different way than they currently do today. They can make…they can see that they can customize, make modifications, be innovative, have a say, so they do not get into vendor lock-in with any of the products that they purchase. So I think that’s one applicable scenario. And then you can go to some war-torn country, someplace that’s desolate, and all they need is solar energy–which by the way, our Gaza office completely powers all of their printers with solar energy–and you can use a solar power energy in the middle of the desert and if you just are able to tent in that unit and get proper humidity under control then you can start building your own medical devices wherever you need them. And I mean, we’re talking about stethoscopes, tourniquets, otoscopes…Glia also has a pulse oximeter coming down the road. We have a portable electrocardiogram that’s coming out very soon. It’s just entering clinical trials this summer. So there’s lots of different types of devices that could be in these scenarios that you may need, like in something that’s somewhat remote. And so it doesn’t matter how remote the community or how vast and vibrant the community is, these devices can be used anywhere, and the process is applicable in all of the communities. Like really we should be making all our devices like this everywhere. Like why are we transporting shit halfway across the world anymore? It makes no sense. It makes no sense.
Inmn 51:19
No, no, it truly does not.
Korin 51:20
You asked in the context of societal collapse and there’s a lot of areas even today where we can see that, for example, the wildfire smoke that’s blanketing areas of Canada and even in the US. And I know that Margaret Killjoy, along with Robert Evans over at It Could Happen Here talked a bit about this and building Corsi-Rosenthal boxes, which are basically air filters made out of box fans and furnace filters. And so those boxes are a very good example of devices medically–we can call them medical supplies–that people right now may want to come together and make. Those are also a particular kind of device that lends itself to this kind of ad hoc, in the moment, production, where if everyone doesn’t stick around and everyone kind of breaks off and goes and does their own thing later, that’s completely fine. There’s some medical devices, which are a little bit more critical, that have to be approached with a little bit more intention. But there’s a number of things all across the spectrum that you could do right now, to things that maybe you should only do in an emergency, to things that we should start building the infrastructure for now so that we can use that later.
Inmn 51:22
Yeah, yeah. And y’all have talked a lot about this, about compliance. And, I guess I’m just wondering, if you could explain for listeners, like what is involved in compliance? Like is it like testing it, the device, to make sure that it works? To make sure it works properly? Like, what goes on for compliance?
Carrie 53:01
So proper compliance. Yes, we’ve mentioned it a whole bunch of times. It’s very important. What that looks like in Canada is four different class levels. And it depends on what types of devices you’re manufacturing as to which type of class level you fall into. So currently, Glia is only manufacturing devices that fall into class one. It’s a fairly simple license for class one and it’s very similar with the FDA, their class, one license looks a lot alike. It’s a little bit more expensive to get a class one license from the FDA than it is in Canada. It’s actually about double the price. But if you’re selling multiple devices, or you have some pool of money to draw on from to get this. Usually these licenses last for a year, so you have lots of time to set up a manufacturer, learn what you need to do. The process is fairly straightforward. You often tend to learn things in North America after the fact. So you know, we set up our license, we got our approval, Health Canada said, "We trust you," and then they came knocking on our door and said, "Hey, by the way, we have an audit for you." And that’s very common, you know, and especially for people that are doing stuff in their home basement labs, which at the time, that’s what we’re doing. So, you know, the point being that it’s fairly straightforward. The most important thing to remember about compliance is that it’s for the patient’s safety. And you have to make sure that if for some reason there’s a problem with what you’ve created, that you can issue a recall. And so, you know, recalls aren’t just, "Oh, somebody was poisoned because they ate this bad bag of kale." It’s also with medical devices. If there’s a problem in that manufacturing process, we may distinguish that there’s an issue and we need to take back those devices and inspect them. And it’s important that you have a process to do that as swiftly as possible. So you know, sometimes depending on how dangerous the situation could be, you may have to initiate a recall within 48 hours of discovering the problem, and trying to retrieve those devices very quickly. So, it’s about knowing those processes really well and protecting the patients, they’re health and safety and life.
Korin 55:28
And kind of going back to a little bit about what I said about there are some things where we might want to stand up the infrastructure now so we can use it later. If we’re talking about a situation in which we think the government is going to break down or not function at all, some kind of collapse or a civil war or what have you, the FDA may not exist. And so in that case, if I’m making tourniquets, for example, then how do you know that these are actually well made and that they’re going to work? And so having proper quality assurance processes in place is extremely important. And that’s something you don’t need a license to develop, I’m not recommending you go make these devices and distribute them without one. But when it comes to other things, you could do a trial run with Corsi-Rosenthal boxes and try and serialize every single one and send them out if you wanted. And that gives you some practice with with doing this because it is, as Carrie mentioned, extraordinarily important. You determine later, "Oh, oops, we sewed these tourniquets together with the wrong thread. Oh, we used the wrong plastic." I’ve seen these things happen in commercial environments, for not medical devices but for other things. That is absolutely critical that you have this relationship established with everybody that you might be giving these tourniquets to, or passing them along to, that you can contact them and they know you and you know them. And we’re not just making a bunch of medical supplies, dumping them into a community and then disappearing and then hoping that no one gets hurt because that’s just reckless.
Carrie 57:13
Yeah, absolutely. And the other thing is, is people shouldn’t be afraid of proper compliance. You know, it’s not something to run from. Like any system, and especially as large as some of these systems we’re talking about in terms of where to obtain proper compliance from, they’re all going to have their pros and cons. But at the end of the day, this really is about making sure that companies are doing things in a safe manner. What I see a lot is that there’s a lot of engineers out there that want to engineer things, right. So they want to build stuff. People love building. People love designing. People love adding their little flair to whatever it is they’re doing. They want to contribute in that way. And then when it comes time for the paperwork, they get super bored. And so that’s why they don’t pursue these things. But, I can tell you from experience, I came into this job, I knew nothing about compliance, and I am now probably the expert on compliance in our group. And I had to figure it all out just on my own while doing a whole bunch of other things for the project at the same time. So, it’s not impossible to figure out these systems. But also in addition, remember, I spoke earlier about how Glia doesn’t just put the device code out there and say, "Here’s the device world do what you will with it." We do the whole package. So you may not find all of our compliance records on our GitHub right this minute, it may not be there today, but it is our intention to make those things public so that people don’t have to have that uphill struggle and figuring out how to do these systems because that’s part of the issue, right, is that these systems are made to be somewhat convoluted and difficult to discern. And if you have a bit of an example of somebody else that did this for a tourniquet, and you want to go out and build some other type of device and innovate that and then get the compliance so you’re doing it, you can come to Glia and say, "Oh, how did they do it with this device? Oh, this is what they did. Here’s the roadmap for doing that. Okay, now I just have to put in my company name, copy these systems exactly. And off we go. I’m doing everything safe," you know, and they’re not going to give you a license unless they think you’re doing it safe. So you have that back to follow on. But why do you have to start from square one even with compliance? It’s not just about building and innovating the device, it’s the whole entire system that comes along with getting those devices from materials to actually treating patients.
Inmn 59:50
Yeah, yeah. It’s almost like y’all trying to build like a large community of people who are invested in each other’s well being regardless of profit or something, which is really cool.
Carrie 1:00:05
Yeah. And in terms of the societal breakdown scenario too and having compliance not really exist in that moment in the way that we see it today, I mean, that’s already happening in the world, right? Like a lot of really amazing places and countries don’t have these governing systems. And they have to go and borrow the roadmaps for that type of compliance from somewhere else. But there’s likely no one in their own countries even governing that. So then, so then what are they doing? Are they being safe? Are they not being safe? You know, so making these processes as clear and transparent and accessible as possible makes sense because at the end of the day, we want to save people not kill people, right? Like, that’s the plan here. Yeah.
Inmn 1:00:57
Yeah. And I’m just going to retrospectively change the question that I asked, which is, yeah, what do we do when the compliance for these organizations don’t exist or are not accessible? And I’m gonna pretend I asked y’all that and that we just got those lovely answers. Cool. Well, that about brings us to time. Is there anything else that y’all would like to say before we wrap things that we didn’t talk about?
Carrie 1:01:32
Well, I’m pretty sure I want to mention a call to action. So often when we meet people and people come to Glia…So Glia., first of all, I probably didn’t explain this earlier on, but Glia has a very small staff. But in my time, in the last six years of being in this position, I’ve seen about 300 volunteers from all over the world get involved in many different ways. And our volunteers are really what fuels our company and what pushes things forward. Korin is a perfect example of somebody who comes in and becomes quite dedicated to the work that we’re doing. And often, when we’re talking to volunteers or people that are interested in Glia, they want to know how they can get involved and what they can do. So if you don’t mind then I’m just gonna share those points.
Inmn 1:02:30
Please. Plug. Plug the things.
Carrie 1:02:31
Yes, yes, we have to plug Glia. That’s something I can’t go through this whole interview without.
Inmn 1:02:39
Yeah, the end is always for plugs.
Carrie 1:02:41
That’s right. So of course, visit our website at Glia.org You’re gonna find out about all of the projects that we’re working on, and it doesn’t stop with device work. We do education in 3D printing, we do other things, we’ll come and we’ll do a seminar for you, we’ll talk to people about any of the topics that we cover. Of course, this project cannot run without funding, which is always kind of the thing that hurts me the most to have to say, but cash is king. And if you are willing to make a donation, you can do that through our website at Glia.org
Inmn 1:03:20
Especially if you have $5 million to give them so that there can be dialysis machines.
Carrie 1:03:23
Yes, absolutely. If you have access to $5 million, I promise you, we will make it work and really Glia is the most frugal project I’ve ever seen, you know. People are really good at wasting lots of money. We are very good at having the lowest budgets possible and making the most happen. So I mean, please trust me, I will make all of your dollars go as far as I possibly can stretch them. We always do that. We want to see our work continue into the future.
Inmn 1:03:54
Cool. And are there ways for folks to get involved with? Like, I don’t know, like, if they have, if there’s listeners who are in places where people might have a hard time accessing medical supplies and they have 3D printers, is there other ways for those people to connect to y’all?
1:04:17
Yeah, we have a GitHub page. That’s GliaX on GitHub. But all of that can be found through the website as well. So, glia.org, click on the products that you’re interested in, and you will find the links to take you to all the information to get all of the roadmaps to be building these things yourself. And certainly if you cannot find those answers there, just reach out to us. We’ll help you along the way for sure.
1:04:43
I also want to mention OpenSourceMedicalSupplies.org, all one word, all spelled out, opensourcemedicalsupplies.org. There’s a number of plans and a lot of information about, as you would expect, open source medical supplies there. So that that may be helpful.
Carrie 1:05:00
Yeah, absolutely.
Inmn 1:05:03
Wonderful. Well, thanks you all so much for coming on today. And someone out there, please give them $5 million. Please.
Carrie 1:05:14
Thanks so much for having us. Thank you.
Inmn 1:05:16
Thanks so much for listening. If you enjoyed this podcast, 3D print a stethoscope and then tell us about it, but also tell people about the podcast. You can support this podcast by telling people about it. You can support this podcast by talking about it on social media, by rating, and reviewing, and doing whatever the nameless algorithm calls for. Feed it like a hungry god. And you can support us on Patreon at patreon.com/strangersinatangledwilderness. Our Patreon helps pay for things like transcriptions, or our lovely audio editor, Bursts, as well as going to support our publisher Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness. We put out this podcast and a few other podcasts including my other podcast Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness, a monthly podcast of anarchist literature, and the Anarcho Geek Power Hour, which is the podcast for people who love movies and hate cops. And we would like to shout out some of those patrons in particular. Thank you Trixter, Princess Miranda, BenBen, Anonymous, Funder, Jans, Oxalis, Janice & O’dell, Paige, Aly, paparouna, Miliaca, Boise Mutual Aid, theo, Hunter, Shawn, S.J., Paige, Mikki, Nicole, David, Dana, Chelsea, Cat J., Staro, Jenipher, Eleanor, Kirk, Sam, Chris, Miciahiah, and Hoss the Dog. We seriously couldn’t do this without y’all. I hope everyone is doing as well as they can with everything that’s happening and we’ll talk to you soon.
This week on Live Like the World is Dying, Burdock and Margaret talk about the overlap between Earth Skills and preparedness as well as going over the basics of how to preserve animal hides, how to process road kill for food, and why you probably don’t want to eat roadkill. Trust your nose on that one
Guest Info
Burdock (she/they) can be found on Instagram @Scragetywocket
Live Like the World is Dying: Burdock on Earth Skills and Road Kills
Margaret 00:14
Hello and welcome to Live Like the World is Dying, your podcast for what feels like the end times. I’m today’s host, Margaret Killjoy. And I’m really excited to be talking about this stuff that we’re gonna be talking about today because it’s something I’ve been wanting to talk about since I first started the show. We’re going to be talking about the primitive skills scene. And in specific, we’re going to talk a bit about roadkill and we’re going to talk about tanning hides of animals that have been destroyed by the mechanisms of industrial civilization. And I’m excited to get into that. But first, this podcast is a proud member of the Channel Zero Network of anarchist podcasts. And here’s a jingle from another show on the network da da duh duh da daa. [Singing a melody]
Margaret 01:38
Okay, we’re back. Okay. So if you could introduce yourself with your name, your pronouns. And then I guess a little bit about how you got into the stuff that we’re going to be talking about today?
Burdock 01:48
Yes, Hi. I’m Burdock. And I use she/they pronouns interchangeably. No preference. And I got into this stuff about 10-11 years ago, living in a city my whole life and being like, "This is not working for me at all. And I want to live in a completely different way." And I went to crazy intense primitive skills school because that was like, the thing I found that resonated the most with me, and it was really traumatizing. But I also learned a lot. And since then, I’ve been continuing to explore communities and practice those things on my own largely.
Margaret 02:30
Okay. What’s primitive skills? To start at the like, super basic, right? This the thing where YouTube influencers get money out of people to fake build things in the woods? [Said with dry sarcasm]
Burdock 02:45
[Laughing] Totally. That is definitely one of the things. That is one of the many ways that it manifests in the world. And also, like, a lot of people hate the term "primitive skills." I think it’s not great. [Margaret makes an affirmative sound] But it is like, the most known term for this realm I’m talking about. And so I usually use it just so people understand what I’m talking about, that I don’t have to be like, "Earth skills, ancestral skills, primitive skills," and I don’t know, I think "earth skills," is like, the best in a way. But yeah, acknowledging right now that this whole thing is like rife with cultural appropriation. And there’s definitely like conversations happening around that in parts of the primitive skill scene, earth skills scene.
Margaret 03:45
No, it’s called Earth skills. [Said jokingly, but seriously]
Burdock 03:47
Yeah, I’m gonna go with Earth skills from here forward. It feels it feels better. Anyway. So, Earth skills broadly refers to all of the ways that humans lived for most of our time here on Earth. Like pre pretty much pre….I don’t know there’s even metal smithing included in a lot of like Earth skills gatherings and stuff…So, but like, usually very, still very, like, land-based, like wood forges and stuff, but pre-agriculture, pre industrial revolution. But, there is some agriculture stuff because like, I think it’s a bit of a myth that like, agriculture equals industrial society equals capitalism equals bad, right?
Margaret 04:38
Yeah, no. Okay. So that is like, kind of my question is like, what skills are included in this kind of place? Like so Earth skills, I assume it’s like hunting, gardening–I mean, in my mind, I’m so used to like survival stuff, so I’m like building emergency shelters filtering your water–but I assume it’s also like, building more permanent structure and making your own clothes? Like like what? What kind of different stuff are people doing?
Burdock 05:07
Yeah, I’d say the standbys are fire by friction, like ways of making fire from only materials you’re harvesting from the land, foraging for food and medicine and other useful plant materials, animal processing, so, you know, post post hunting, what do you do with the body of the animal that you killed? Hunting is definitely there. And weapon making as well, making weapons just from what’s on the landscape around you, just from what you can find. Shelter building. And I think the theme, the theme that runs throughout all of these is "Just from the land around you and maybe you have a knife." But I teach friction fire with no knife, so that varies a lot. There’s pottery with local wild clay and how to process that clay so you can actually make pots with it. Basket making–which is also something I do–with materials you’re foraging and how to forage for those materials or how to propagate them, how to process them. Totally different from, you know, the materials being prepared for you and you’re just going for it. Yeah. Yeah. And I’m sure I’m forgetting tons of stuff.
Margaret 06:38
Yeah, no, I’m, I’m sure, too. And I…it’s been a while since I’ve been around people who are particularly into this, but I it’s been interesting to be around. Okay, I have a bunch of questions about it, though. So one of them is, what role does this have in the modern world? Like, what? And I’m sure that’s something that people talk about within this, you know, scene or community and stuff, but like, what…or like, sell me or the listener on getting into this kind of stuff? Like, what’s it about?
Burdock 07:10
I think it’s about different things to different people. And what it’s about, to me is resilience and becoming a more resourceful kind of creative person, having more options of ways to live. I get to disengage from a lot of the kind of modern society stuff when I choose to engage in those skills, which for my life has been important because I have like sensory processing stuff. And so being able to, like, escape from the barrage has been really important. And I think different people have different reasons for needing to get away from that. Even just traveling, like it’s making my traveling life easier. Even stuff, like being able to pee stealthily or find like spots in the woods to like, have an anxiety attack. Like, all of these skills are really practical in just surviving the modern world the way it is now. Like, even if things stay exactly how they are. And, you know, there is this idea of, "Oh, if stuff gets worse I’m going to be prepared in all these ways. And I can like, share these…I can teach the skills that I know to other people so that they can deal with whatever’s happening." And, you know, including just stuff like blackouts that are short or natural disasters. Like that’s definitely part of it, too. But a huge part of it for me is just the selfishness needed to protect my senses.
Margaret 09:01
That makes a lot of sense to me. And one of the things that’s kind of come up more recently on this show as I interview different people is realizing there’s all of these different means by which people engage in nature, right? And I know that…I kind of at some point, I don’t know if I have the brainwidth to do it, the brain space to do it right now, I want to problematize the idea of nature, problematize the idea that nature is this separate thing that is distinct from humans, and even–if you want to piss off people–it’s even a separate thing that it’s not separate from industrial society, right? Like anything that humans make. But there’s all of these different ways that people interact with nature. And it’s like really interesting to see which ones are useful for people now in the world to learn how to disengage and which ones are useful for people in different kinds of collapse scenarios, different disasters and things and so it’s like…You know, I haven’t had on someone to talk specifically about bushcraft, but It seems like bushcraft is almost the like step more modern than like what you do, right? Like, because like bushcraft would be like, "Well, you have your saw on your axe and you can build your log cabin, right?" Which is in some ways, I think the least sustainable way for modern people to go interact with nature. But maybe I’m only saying that because I haven’t interviewed a bushcraft person who’s gonna sell me on it really well. And then you have Earth skills, which is like the least–not necessarily the least impactful–but the least, requires the least resources, right? Versus you have the ways that outdoor athletes, like hikers, and skiers, and snowboarders–I don’t know, I don’t know anything about winter–interact with it, versus the way that like hunters interact with it, right? And there’s like all of these different ways that people interact with and I’m really interested about it. So that’s like…what you’re talking about, like, here’s how to go… Like, I don’t know how to start a fire by friction. I’ve seen people do it. I still don’t really believe it. It doesn’t seem real because I’ve tried. But it’s really, really hard, I think. I don’t know,
Burdock 11:07
It’s really hard because these skills need to be passed down from person to person. And in a lot of cultures it’s like cultural information. It’s encoded in the songs, and in the stories, and it’s encoded in everything. And so even as a child, if no one’s showing you how to do it, you know from the stories and the songs maybe what plants on the landscape are useful for that. And you’ve seen people around you do it. Most people when they’re trying to start friction fire they maybe have never even seen people do it before. They just have this concept in their mind of like rubbing sticks together, or like they saw it a little bit in a video, or they even watched a tutorial on how to do it. But, that’s not enough because you learn these things through the senses. You have to be able to see and touch and hear. And when you can’t do that, it’s really hard to learn them.
Margaret 12:01
Ya, no. That makes sense. Also, usually I here now make a joke about how everything that I don’t understand is fake. But, I actually don’t want to here. I do it about fishing usually. Usually my joke is that fishing is fake. But, I’ve seen people start friction fires and it’s cool. So, one of the main reasons to learn this is for the here and now, is like ways to disconnect, and ways to you know, go out and engage in nature, again, the loaded word, "nature." Okay, so one of the things I think that we talked about wanting to talk about now is where earth skills fit within the sort of subset of prepping. Like, I am under the impression that the Earth skills scene, for example, is like kind of a prepping scene in some ways, just not the same as the one that most people know about.
Burdock 12:50
Yeah, it’s a lot like bushcraft, and it’s a lot like even like backpacking, and it’s a lot like homesteading, and it’s a lot like all these things. And then the core difference is like basically starting from scratch-scratch. Like you’re making all the tools that you’re using to do all these projects. You’re…If you have a backpack, you’re like making that backpack and you have to make the material that the backpack is made out of like…
Margaret 13:22
You have to make nylon. [Laughing].
Burdock 13:25
Right, you have to make the nylon. You have to go harvest the oil and process it. [Probably said jokingly]
Margaret 13:29
[Incredulously] Do people do that?
Burdock 13:30
I recently went to a gathering where you had to drive past this like oil well thing that was just like actually actively pumping oil from the Earth.
Margaret 13:40
Oh my God.
Burdock 13:41
It was actually a great reality check, though. Because it’s like, "Oh, we’re going to this gathering. We’re all pretending that we live in this like beautiful, ideal community where everybody wears natural clothes and stuff." And it’s like, yeah, this is…We’re all driving here. Like we’re all involved in this.
Margaret 14:00
Well, and it gets into this–I want to come back to the prepping thing, but I want to follow on this tangent really quick–It gets into this thing that I think about a lot. I’ve been like camping and hiking more a lot recently–mostly because I realized I can because I work on a computer on my own schedule for living. And like mostly I read history books for a living and I’m like, "I can do that in a hammock in the woods." And so I’ve been trying to do that. And one of the things that’s like been really striking me is this reminder that there like is no outside. And I mean that–like I mean there’s like outside the house–but there’s like no outside of society, like there’s no…Like the closest we have are like wilderness areas, at least in continental US you know is where I hang out, right, but there’s like…You’re not…Like, we’re like choosing to not bring Fritos with us, right? It’s not that the Fritos aren’t available to us, you know. And like…And at least the way I do it, I’m like driving there and stuff, but also it’s like, even when I go find like the free dispersed camping and stuff, there’s like tons of other people around, which is actually fine. It helps break–So I kind of wonder whether Earth skills falls into this a little more than it should–it helps break the like frontiersman mentality, the like, "I’m going to go tame nature," and that’s like something that’s always kind of…Not rubbed me the wrong way about all Earth skills, but like seemed like a danger available to the Earth skills community. But maybe I’m completely off base. I don’t know how people handle that or talk about it.
Burdock 15:26
No, that’s really on point. I think there’s a lot of like…There’s a lot of bizarre ways…I feel like within the Earth skills community, what I see the most is people having this like reverential, like, "I have this spiritual connection with the Earth and with these plants." And there’s this kind of disconnect, in a way, with like..Yeah, I don’t know how they’re actually living their lives, how they’re actually behaving. Like, I feel like people don’t acknowledge enough, like, "I regard the world and the earth in this way, but I also am exploiting it in the way that I live, too. And I’m playing a part in…" You know, like, some of these people are rich. Some of the people who do this stuff, they have land and that’s why they have enough time to learn how to tan hides, like as a hobby, you know? And there’s no acknowledgment there of like, that’s contributing to this, like, apocalypse thing that’s being foretold in like Tom Brown’s–he’s a primitive skills teacher guy–prophecy, doomsday stuff, like…
Margaret 16:54
No, that makes sense. Because it’s like most people…Most people who are making money through Capitalism or whatever like at large scale–not like people who work at Starbucks or whatever because they have to–the people that like own Starbucks. The person who owns Starbucks might be able to have like, a million acres somewhere that they can keep pristine so they can go around and build huts or whatever, but they’re doing that by like, destroying the shit out of Central America or whatever, you know?
Burdock 17:19
Right!
Margaret 17:21
It’s interesting. And, okay. I’m actually really interested in Earth skills stuff and so it sounds like I’m talking shit, but I really don’t mean it this way.
Burdock 17:29
No, you gotta talk shit about it. I talk shit about it because I love it and I want it to be good.
Margaret 17:33
Yeah, no, it makes sense. I wonder whether how much–at least again, in the continental US–settler people, like white people in the United States, how much there’s like this, like…I kind of hate framing things….I hate publicly framing things this way because I don’t know how to do it better. But, like, I feel like there’s this curse, where people like want to have a certain type of connection and almost just like can’t because it’s just cursed to them. Because…Not because of blood or something, but because of being a settler of a culture that has come and destroyed this place. You know? And so it feels like trying to…It’s not…It’s still worth trying to engage in stuff. But it feels like there’s this like insurmountable or very hard to surmount curse that disconnects us. And when I’m using us, I–I actually don’t know anything about you–it disconnects me and other white people from connecting in certain ways with this specific land. And I…I don’t know how to say it better than that because I’m not trying to make this like…Well, I mean, I believe in the decolonization of the US, like, on a political level, right, I believe that the United States is an empire that should not exist and occupies stolen land that should be, you know, returned. But, I’m still not trying to make a like permanent proclamation about something on a spiritual level. But I just I feel like there’s like this thing that has to be overcome. And I don’t know whether it’s possible. I think I gave you a really easy question there. [Jokingly]
Burdock 19:08
I love it, because this is what I think about all the time. And I agree with all of those…like everything you said about this country, basically. Like, I’m on the same page. And it’s been something I’ve been thinking about a lot because when I started doing this 11 years ago, that stuff wasn’t on my mind. Like, I was just like, "I’m 19. I don’t like living in a city." And as I’ve…You know, and the school, I went to appropriated a lot. And I’ve been to gatherings where there’s a lot of appropriation and it wasn’t on my radar. And then it’s been thanks to a lot of the work that indigenous people are doing and black people are doing in that I’ve like, come into this awareness like…But, it’s also been through the plants and the land themselves.
Burdock 20:00
It had to come over time. Like when I was at that school 10 years ago, we harvested wild rice. And that…that’s like a real…it’s the cornerstone of the traditions of all of the people who live where wild rice lives. And then I moved, and I was trying to continue harvesting wild rice and there were a lot of layers about it. Like, it kept not working out for me. And then it was like…I like…It kept not working out until in one way or another I accidentally gave tobacco to the water. And then it would be like, "Oh, now it’s working." And so I figured that out. And then after I figured that out, I was really hearing from the land, like, for the first couple of years, it was like, "It’s great that someone’s here. It’s great that someone’s like, seeing us and acknowledging us. Like, we’re the wild rice and we missed people." And the longer I listened, the more I was like, "Oh, you don’t miss like me. You miss "the" people. Like, you miss "your" people and the songs and the stories and the way that those people live and the way that those people live with you. You miss them and I will never be able to be that for you." All I can do is hear that. And that doesn’t really answer your question. But, it takes time and a lot of listening and moving at the speed of relationship.
Margaret 20:00
No, that makes sense.
Margaret 20:02
Okay, that makes sense. And I, you know, and I don’t want to like specifically call out this community more than any other community, right? Like, I think that people engaging in a lot of this kind of stuff…Well, I don’t know, I’m not in a place to make any kind of judgment about that. I’m not part of either the things that I’m talking about, but to people…Okay, so let’s go back a step. We were talking about how Earth skills are a subset of prepping or of the prepping world. And I’m wondering if you want to talk more about that. Like, how does it engage with your own preparedness? How can communities use this kind of knowledge to become more resilient is like one of the big questions I have.
Burdock 22:22
Yeah, I think most of the people who engage in Earth’s skills aren’t thinking very hard about how it actually applies to prepping, but they do believe in some kind of like, apocalyptic future. And that’s one of the reasons that they do it. But they’re like not thinking about it that hard. They’re not thinking about it in real terms.
Margaret 22:42
It’s just a utopian thing for them. They’re like, "Industrial civilization will collapse. And we’ll all be free"?
Burdock 22:46
There like, yeah there will be a lot of suffering, but like, you know, and then we’ll be free and it’ll be fine. Well, I’ll live in huts in the woods. And nothing will be problematic anymore.
Margaret 22:59
Yeah. Because there’s…Then you get to have an outside once everyone’s dead. That’s one of my problems with it.
Burdock 23:05
It doesn’t make sense. It doesn’t make sense. And like, I used to kind of think that way before I really thought about it. And I’m like, I have too much like, compassion for human beings to wish for anything like that. Like some people want this, like doomsday type thing to happen. But yeah, natural disasters happen. Things happen all the time that we want to be prepared for. And, I just feel like me existing and having like this little library of skills in my brain and my body, it makes it so that anywhere that I am, all the people around me have that skill. And so if we’re stuck in a situation where like, we don’t have matches, we don’t have a lighter. All this stuff happens spontaneously. Like, I know of more than one way to start fire without those things. And so yeah, just having any one person knowing any of those skills, it makes you more prepared for things…Like you can only prepare for so many things.
Margaret 24:11
Yeah, totally.
Burdock 24:12
Like you cannot like, "Oh yeah, I brought matches, but I didn’t think about water filtration, or I dropped my water filtration device and it’s never to be found again or." And also just like even if you have all those things, if you’re in a long term situation, like you’re gonna run out of matches. You’re gonna run out a lighter fuel. Your clothing is gonna deteriorate. Like you do need to…Even if you even if you like have access to warehouses of this modern stuff, it’s important to be passing down these skills person to person. And I think it changes the way that you engage with the world as it is presently, which I think needs to happen.
Margaret 24:59
That It makes a lot of sense that. So, teaching these skills and learning these skills both makes you more prepared in the sense that you know how to start a fire if shit goes bad for a couple days and you know how to repair clothes or fix clothes or make clothes from scratch if shit does stays bad, but that also–I’m just saying back what I think what I think you’re saying–but also, people learning these skills also teaches people like, nicer ways to engage with the environment that they’re in and like more useful ways to…like less destructive ways of being. Is that kind of what you’re saying?
Burdock 25:35
It’s having a different mindset, like…
Margaret 25:41
A grind-set kind of deal.
Burdock 25:42
I process a lot of roadkill.
Margaret 25:43
The road kill grind set.
Burdock 25:44
Yes, I process a lot of roadkill deer, the roadkill grind set next, and it’s just changed the way I’ve thought about them a lot. Like, and how I think about all animals but particularly deer, like they’re no longer just this, like, being I see in the distance in the land or like a see their dead bodies around, I’m just like, they, each one of them has a unique personality. Each one of them has led a life of like, that we cannot comprehend as humans, you know? And, and each one of them holds in their bodies, like the things that can keep us alive. And I mean that both on this like strictly physical level where it’s like, there’s bone tools, and there’s meat to eat, and fat to eat, and there’s connective tissue for bag making. And, like, there’s that but it’s also…it’s also on an emotional level. It’s also on a, on a spiritual level, if you’re into that.
Margaret 26:53
Okay, well, let’s talk about roadkill because that’s probably what’s going to be the title of the episode. Maybe not. Maybe you all are listening to "Earth skills with Burdock," instead of "Roadkill with Burdock." I’m not sure. But yeah, okay, so like, so I see a dead thing. How rough should we start here? Like, cause some of the questions that people have about roadkill. right, one of the main questions is, "Can you eat that? Is that safe?" Right? That’s like…And then there’s like "How to?" Right? There’s the like, "Can you?" and then "How to." And I guess there’s two different things, there’s the eating and then there’s….
Burdock 27:35
Assessment.
Margaret 27:36
Oh, okay. Oh, I was gonna say, well, there’s the eating the animal and then there’s the making stuff with the animal.
Burdock 27:44
First there’s the assessing of the animal.
Margaret 27:47
Okay, so let’s hear how to assess. I got really embarrassed once. I was…There was a roadkill deer on my property and my neighbor…
Burdock 27:55
Oh, on your property.
Margaret 27:56
Yeah. I live rurally. Or, I don’t know if you’re just taking us a jab at the fact that I’m referring to it as "my property."
Burdock 28:02
No, no, I just mean that that happened. Like right there.
Margaret 28:06
Oh, yeah. No, I, there’s deer all around where I live. And. And, you know, all I know is that there’s a dead deer intact on my property. And we’re like, I don’t know how this thing died. And I was like, "Hey, neighbor, do you want this?" And my neighbor was like, "That’s no good." And I’m like, "How do you know?" And they just like, look at me and they’re like, "Well, it’s just no good." And I’m like, "Oh, you grew up knowing how to assess a deer." Because in my mind, well, it’s not it’s not rotting. I don’t know anything about this besides that it’s not rotting, you know?
Burdock 28:41
Yeah, well, and I think different people also have different ideas of what is and isn’t good, even people who have experience with processing roadkill, with picking up and working with roadkill. Some people think all roadkill is just not good to eat. And there is something in that because the impact does damage the tissues and sometimes even a fresh deer is just…it’s just pulverized on the inside in a way that like even if it’s not their stomach contents in the meat–that’s something people worry about–but like the muscle tissue itself has just kind of exploded interiorly and it does…Injured tissue doesn’t taste good. And so if you’ve assessed the deer and you’ve said "This deer. I’m going to continue processing this deer. I think there might be food for me inside of this deer," having a framework in your mind for what is and isn’t normal tissue is important. And a huge way of how you learn that is just doing it a lot. But, I think the main way that you’re going to assess a deer, and the way I assess them, is smell. And, like, if an animal smells really bad, they’re rotting and you shouldn’t eat them. And if but if you can, like getting them off the road a little farther, so scavengers aren’t putting themselves at risk when they’re going to eat the deer is nice. It’s really nice to do. But yeah, another thing that I do, if I come upon a roadkill deer or other roadkill animal, is you can, super simple test, just pull on the hair of the belly. And if it comes out, just like with no effort at all, that rotting is really set in. And you don’t want to use the hide. You don’t want to eat the meat.
Margaret 30:52
You don’t want to use to hide if it’s rotten?
Burdock 30:54
Yeah, I mean, particularly for first because the fur is all going to slip, but at that point, like if the hair is slipping, there’s enough bacteria present in even the hide that it’s a health risk to move forward with processing them, especially like you know, bacteria from a rotting hide getting into any kind of open wound on the hand. I get cuts on my hands a lot because I do lots of my hands. People you can get infections and they’re really bad.
Margaret 31:29
What if I have Earth skilled myself like a nitrile hazmat suit?
Burdock 31:35
Then you’re fine. Or I mean, even, if you really wanted to tan that deer skin, you could like wear some gloves and get the hide and flush it and get it into like a alkaline solution, like a wood ash solution. And that would actually neutralize things. And from that point forward, the hide would be fine to work with. But you know, until then, you gotta you gotta put on your earth skills latex gloves.
Margaret 32:01
Yeah. Well, and it’s probably worth pointing out that if you are learning how to do this from a podcast, do not try the expert level thing.
Burdock 32:09
No. Even putting a hide in wood ash has just taken me years to figure out, like, "How much water to mix with the wood ash," and "How much…How to assess like when do you even want to do that?" And yeah, yeah, most of the information about that out there is really bad. And the way I learned it was my friend just being like, "Here, this is how it should feel," and me being like, "Oh, okay, it should feel slippery like this. And that, that means it’s the right amount of wood ash and the right amount of water" Like dammit, yeah.
Margaret 32:41
Yeah, that makes sense. That’s the kind of thing that you can’t get from YouTube or a podcast, you know?
Burdock 32:48
No, you can’t.
Margaret 32:51
Okay, okay, so, you’ve done the initial assessment.
Burdock 32:54
No, you’ve done the actual assessment.
Margaret 32:56
It’s, it smells fine, the hair on the belly doesn’t slip, and you’ve…so then you cut into it. And I’m so grossed out by it, but I’m going to do this for out listeners. I think everyone who listens knows that I’m vegan, but also have no ethical qualms with roadkill or hunting, personally. But, so I’m going to try my best. So then you like cut it up, right? And you’re like, "Oh, there’s meat in here?" Is that the?
Burdock 33:24
Yeah, well,…
Margaret 33:26
It’s like a video game, right?
Burdock 33:28
Usually you have to–unless they die on the road right outside of your house and even then–you need to move their body to where it’s safe for you to process them. And so there have been times in Maine where all I’ve had to do is move the deer off the road because it’s wooded and there’s not going to be some person coming over and being like, "This is my land. What are you doing here with this dead deer?" But sometimes you have to put the deer in your car. That’s a whole thing. But after you’re at a place where it’s safe to do that process…Yeah, I mean, do you want me to really get into…the details of it?
Margaret 34:05
Yeah, I mean, like maybe not like totally blow-by-blow but like…Okay, like how much am I willing to disassociate for this? Maybe don’t tell me how to like…You know what, let’s let’s cut to the…I’m sorry everyone you’re gonna need a different teacher…We’ll cut to once you’ve got the meat and the skin and they are separate things. I don’t need to know about the organs as much, but maybe there’s like big, like, "Don’t rupture the such and such." I think there’s like some organ that if you rupture, it’s like all over. Everything smells awful.
Burdock 34:40
It’s really, it’s not hard to not do that. I think people make a really big deal about the gallbladder. Yeah, I feel like if you’re just starting out, like if you’re just starting out, if you’re picking up a deer, they should smell neutral. Like if they smell a little bit like a horse to you or like like grass, like that’s what you want. Sometimes I pick up deer who smell different, but it’s because I’ve had time to figure that out. And you want to just, for roadkill, remove all guts. Just don’t deal with that. And then you’re dealing with a clean body and a skin. There’s lots of skinning videos on YouTube. And there’s lots of different ways to do it. You know, like, you know, the different ways to…
Margaret 35:29
Not allowed to how a 30 round magazine.
Burdock 35:31
Yeah. [Laughing a little confused]
Margaret 35:32
YouTube, you’re not allowed to do a 30 round magazine, but you can watch some animal get removed from its skin. It’s bad.
Burdock 35:38
Totally and it’s, it’s not considered violent or anything.
Margaret 35:42
Yeah. I mean, whatever, I’m completely fine with it. But anyway,
Burdock 35:45
It’s just different standards. But yeah, and I like to just quarter the animals and just what that means is having a back leg, and another back leg, and a front leg, and another front leg, and then the torso and you can break that down however much you want. But you just have these kind of large chunks. And from that point, if it’s good, if it’s the right weather for it, you can just hang the meat. And the meat is okay just hanging outside. And I have to do that a lot because I often am not living with refrigerators and freezers. Some people, when they get a roadkill deer, they either choose to or they need to process all the meat right then and there and like wrap it in plastic or paper and put it in the freezer and it takes like all day. Yeah, but it’s…I think it’s more ideal if you just get to hang up some legs and a torso.
Margaret 36:48
What’s the legality of taking roadkill?
Burdock 36:48
It varies from state to state.
Margaret 36:49
Okay, great.
Burdock 36:50
So, you got to look up what your state says about that.
Margaret 37:00
Don’t break and then point to us about it.
Burdock 37:03
Don’t break the law. But also different cops have different feelings about it. Like some of them secretly think that you’re really cool for doing that. And so even if they like see you doing it there, they ignore it.
Margaret 37:19
Yeah, fair. Okay. Okay, so. And for anyone who’s listening, the reason that there’s…Like a slight lag. And so that’s like, why my dumb interjections aren’t always working. Otherwise, they would be incredibly funny and everyone would be laughing all the time. It’d be a laugh track. [Joking] And so, okay, so you’ve got your drawn and quartered animal where you’ve tied it between four horses and pulled it all four directions and then…Sorry, wait, that’s the medieval torture. So, we’ve quartered the animal. Alright, so the meat. We don’t talk about cooking meat and stuff. Right? That’s meat. Alright. So yeah, but you want to talk hide, right?
Burdock 37:59
Yeah. Hiiiiides. [Excitedly inflected upwards like singing] I love having the honor and privilege to work with animal skins. And I think that it’s a huge thing to do because like with the meat you’re eating, it’s gonna be back in the earth pretty soon, but with the skin, you’re suspending a part of the animal away from the Earth where they normally go when they die for like a long time. And that requires this huge effort. And it takes a long time to learn. And it takes a lot of infrastructure, especially for larger skins like deer skins, if you’re making brain tanned leather or bark tanned leather–and we can get into all the different kinds of tanning if we want–but yeah, you need physical infrastructure. And, you can make all that stuff pretty easily. But then that also takes time. So…Uhhh…I’ve gotten to a place where I can improvise a lot, but there’s also…it’s, way easier to work with a skin when I just have like, the physical infrastructure already there. Like if I’m traveling and I show up at a friend’s place and they have all that stuff ready to go, I don’t have to think about it. Like a scraping beam. That’s the first thing you need because when you remove the skin from the animal, they usually have some muscle tissue and maybe fat still on the skin, and you need to remove that because that’s what’s gonna be starting to rot the soonest. And you do that by…I mean there’s other ways to do it, but I do it by draping the skin over like a log and pinning the skin between my body–which I have like an apron of some sort on–and the log and I use a metal scraping tool. It’s quite dull–you don’t want it to be sharp because you don’t want to puncture the skin–to push the muscle and fat tissue off of the skin. You got to do that for every skin you’re working on. A lot of it…From there, there’s a plethora of options, but every skin needs to at least be fleshed, as they call it, just the process of removing muscle and fat tissue.
Margaret 40:27
Okay, so where does the skill tree build up from there if you’re playing a video game? I don’t know. So, you said there’s a bunch of different options. So there’s like–I’m going to make them up–so there’s like rawhide, and there’s brain tan–there’s natural tannins–and then there’s vegetable…Wait no, and then there’s mineral tanning, which means chemical tanning. And which means it’ll never rot into the Earth and therefore is unholy by the standards that I personally hold. In a similar way as plastic, which I totally use, and so I’m not actually casting judgment here. Okay, those are the only three I know of.
Burdock 41:03
I love that you said rawhide first.
Margaret 41:07
Well, that seems like the most…It’s the one where you do the least…I don’t know.
Burdock 41:11
Yes, I love rawhide. And I think that people don’t give rawhide enough credit. Because you can use rawhide in a lot of ways. And people use tanned skins for a lot of things you can just use rawhide for. Like, please save yourself the effort. Like, it’s a great place to start if you want to work with skins. And it’s a great place to start. It’s just making rawhide and using it.
Margaret 41:37
Okay, but what are people using it for that…What are people using a tanned leather that they could be using rawhide for?
Burdock 41:43
Like hides that you’re going to sleep on, or sit on the ground with, or even put on a chair, like they don’t need to be softened the way that hides that you’re going to put on your body and wear as clothing needs to be.
Margaret 42:02
So it’s about softening them not about preserving them?
Burdock 42:06
Well, it’s also about preservation because…I’ll use the example of using a hide to sit on the ground. I prefer rawhide for sitting on the ground,because it takes rawhide a lot longer to absorb moisture from the grounds. At least in the places where I live, the ground has moisture in it. And if you’re putting pressure on a hide you’re sitting on it’s going to be sucking up that moisture. And a tanned hide, like a brain can hide especially, it is more like a towel. It will it will take in moisture faster and more easily. Even on a really humid day, if it’s like foggy or it’s really humid, a brain tanned buckskin, for example, is just going to pull moisture in from the air and just become wet.
Margaret 43:04
This sounds awful. You’re describing a nightmare. You are trapped in another creature’s moist skin.
Burdock 43:09
And that’s and that’s why like I lament, for a lot of reasons, but with you know, with the genocide of so many people, you lose these, like finer details. Like if people who lived in the territory of the Penobscot, for example, wore buckskins, how did they deal with it when they absorbed moisture from the air? Like what? Yeah, did they? How did they prevent that from happening? Or like, how did they deal with that? Or did they just…was it not a big deal and they dealt with it? I don’t know. And it’s…it’s hard. It’s hard to even like mentally process how much of that finer detail, more land specifics information, is if not lost, unmoored and difficult to to find. Yeah.
Margaret 44:24
Okay, so the three methods…Am I wrong that it’s the three methods? There’s rawhide, vegetable tanning, which is brain and bark, any natural tannin–I’m literally making this up–and mineral tanning which is chemical stuff.
Burdock 44:41
Yeah, so your your close.
Margaret 44:44
Okay.
Burdock 44:45
Rawhide. And then I categorize brain tanning and vegetable tanning differently, but I consider those both natural tanning methods. And a lot of people just say naturally tanned, though, and then they don’t go into details. And when they can’t tell you more information it’s usually chemically tanned anyways.
Margaret 45:07
Oh, I thought you could tell by like cutting the leather. I was like in the leather working for this brief moment. Like, I wasn’t very good at it. I thought you could like tell by like cutting the leather and it was like darker if it was…I’m expecting I’m wrong. I thought was like darker if had been mineral tanned inside.
Burdock 45:25
Honestly, I think it’s hard for me to tell even now as a tanner, sometimes, like, what, in what manner hide was tanned. It’s usually pretty obvious, but sometimes it’s a little unclear. Yeah, those are kind of the two natural tannings and then there’s alum tanning, which I know nothing about it, but it does seem kind of in between natural and mineral tanning. Or maybe it’s…You know, some people would say, "That’s a natural method." And some people will say, "That’s not natural." But I don’t know anything about it so I’m not gonna talk about it. And then yeah, there’s all the more industrial methods of tanning where they’re constantly using new chemicals to do it because either the old ones got outlawed or they can’t find those chemicals anymore. Or, you know, they have to like put everything…they have to put the whole tanning station on a boat and put that boat into waters where there aren’t regulations about these things so that they can dump the caustic stuff that they’re using, just you know, into the ocean, like it’s that…It’s that level. So yeah, commercial tanning is is bad, y’all.
Margaret 46:40
Well, no. Okay, so this makes me feel better about…the weakest part–I don’t really proselytize veganism, people will do whatever they want–but the weakest part of veganism in general is when people are like "Use vegan leather instead," because what they mean is use plastic instead. Right? Yeah. And like using plastic instead of leather is like not actually doing anyone except possibly the factory farmed animal any favors, right? But if the way that commercial leather is treated is also fucking evil then it like moves a point back over. Anyway….
Burdock 47:17
Over to the vegan side.
Margaret 47:20
Yeah, I totally…
Burdock 47:24
I mean, watch out. Someday they’re gonna figure out cactus leather, or mushroom leather, or kombucha scobi leather.
Margaret 47:31
They’re working on mushroom leather.
Burdock 47:35
I don’t think that any of those leathers are ever going to be able to do animal-based leather can do.
Margaret 47:48
I have no counter argument. Okay, so I’m guessing that you’re a proponent of vegetable tanned leather, or naturally tanned leather and not chemically tanned leather. Is that an accurate assessment?
Burdock 48:03
Yeah, yeah. But there are…you can get vegetable tanned leather commercially, too. And it’s different from the home tanned stuff. It is often still done in pretty shitty and unsustainable ways. But at least there’s less like chemicals involved. Some of the barks that are used in the commercial vegetable tanning are like from the Amazon rainforest and they’re byproducts or products of like deforestation that shouldn’t be happening. So there’s that too. I like the home tanned stuff because you know what’s going into it? You don’t have to ask those questions. "Where did this come from?" "Oh, I found this deer on the road." "Where did the bark come from?" "I found the bark that had just fallen up the street,that just fallen. I took the bark. I boiled the bark, I put the hide in the bark. I waited a long time. I kept changing the water and then I took the hide out and I put oil in it and I softened it while it was drying and now, now it’s my shoes."
Margaret 49:15
I really liked the speed run of tanning and you just did.
Burdock 49:20
Well that but that’s just vegetable tanning. Brain tanning is a little different.
Margaret 49:24
Okay, so is brain tanning and vegetable tanning both using something called tannin, which is some kind of chemical thingy that naturally occurs in a bunch of different stuff including acorns and some bark and apparently brains to do stuff to the leather? Is that the big idea?
Burdock 49:48
Vaguely Yes. So brain tanning involves no tannins. At that point…And pretty much at any point tanning is like a colloquialism. It’s a word that we say that doesn’t necessarily have an association with tannins anymore. And what people mean when they say tanning is they just mean that the hide has been softened and preserved.
Margaret 50:11
Okay.
Burdock 50:12
But the only method in which that’s happening with tannins is the vegetable tanning method. And vegetable just means plant matter in that context. So it can be leaves, it can be bark. I don’t want to get into the acorns thing because I’ve never successfully like boiled acorns or acorn shells and gotten tannins that I’m happy with. I think it’s a myth. But maybe other people have other experiences with that. And if you have, tell me how you do it.
Margaret 50:48
Okay, but why would someone pick brain tanning? Because in my mind, I’d be like, "Oh, well, the thing you got comes with the thing you need," like so it seems like brains are gross as shit but like a natural–I mean you’re already doing something gross as shit–so whatever. It seems like a natural thing. Like why? Why do you fuck around with leaves and bark when the brains right there? Or like what are the…how do you decide how you’re going to tan your shoes?
Burdock 51:18
Yeah, different leathers for different purposes. And they behave differently as well. Brain tanning…And it really shouldn’t be gross. Like, if there’s bad smells going on, something’s wrong and you need to figure that out. It shouldn’t. It shouldn’t smell bad even though the concept of like, "I’m touching a skin. I’m touching a brain," might be…uncomfortable
Margaret 51:44
Yeah, yeah. It’s not gross because of the smell. It’s gross because you’re inside something. It’s gross. Yeah, but this is my own…I don’t like the inside of my own body. Like this is fine.
Burdock 51:56
Yeah, yeah, outside it’s fine.
Margaret 51:59
Yeah, well like half the reason I’m vegans is I’m like, "Well, that’s just gross so I just don’t fuck with it." I don’t know. Anyway,
Burdock 52:07
Um, yeah. So I like brain tanned leather for clothing that’s going to be against my skin, for example.
Margaret 52:19
Makes you smart.
Burdock 52:21
Yeah. It’s always going to be softer and more supple in general, more flexible. But, it absorbs water, it absorbs moisture the most quickly from out of all of the leathers. So, it’s not great for for instance, shoes in a climate where the ground is wet a lot. Right. Even though buckskin moccasins are incredible footwear, it’s really nice to be able to feel the Earth while your feet are protected. But, if they got wet, it feels really gross. And it just like it deteriorates quickly. Like if you wear your buckskin moccasins and they get wet and you continue wearing them, they are going to get holes and wear out very soon. You know? Vegetable tanned leather doesn’t absorb moisture as quickly. And it’s it’s generally a little tougher. And I think rawhide doesn’t absorb moisture…It takes the longest to absorb moisture. It’s the toughest. Okay, yeah, yeah. And what brains do to the hide is it’s just it’s just a softening agent. It does the same thing. Oil for vegetable tanned leather is also just a softening agent. The preservative agent and brain tanning is smoke. It’s the woods smoke. After the softening process, you can stitch the whole hide up like a balloon and fill it with wood smoke by making a super smoky fire and like funneling all the smoke into it. I’m oversimplifying a lot. And you turn it inside out and smoke the other side. And it’s the aldehydes in the smoke that are acting as the preserving agent.
Margaret 54:20
Okay, that…Yeah, that makes sense. You can smoke meat. So yeah, to preserve it. Okay, okay, I know about meat. [Said skeptically. Then laughs]
Burdock 54:35
Yeah, whereas with vegetable tanning, the preservatives, the actual tannins that are in the plants, you’re boiling or cold leaching them so that they come into the water and then from the water they go into the hide and they bind with the fibers of the hide. But tannins, the way that you know something is tannin right, is like tasting it. You put in your mouth and it’s like, it feels horrible. It has this drying quality. It’s more astringent than bitter. It’s more about the astringent action. And the astringency, it’s like…it’s like this drying, puckering thing. And so when you put a hide and tannins, it’s stripping it of moisture, it’s very drying. And it actually causes the whole hide to kind of pucker up a little bit so it gets a little smaller and it gets thicker.
Margaret 55:33
Everyone who’s listening, I’m very sad that you didn’t get to see Burdock enact what happens to the hide. You’re just gonna have to imagine at home.
Burdock 55:44
The little dance.
Margaret 55:48
Anyway, sorry.
Burdock 55:49
I have to get my brain back into science mode. So yeah, once you’ve…once all the tannins have bound all the fibers in the hide, and it can’t absorb any more tannins, you need to replace all of the like glubons and stuff that have been stripped out with oil. If you don’t oil a vegetable tanned hide…like if you don’t oil a hide that’s full of tannins, it’s really brittle because of the drying astringent quality of tannins.
Margaret 56:24
Are you getting that oil from animal fats? Because, I’m under the impression that oil is like one of the harder things to source in the wild.
Burdock 56:31
It can be. It can be any kind of fat. It could even be, yeah, egg yolks or brains. It can be…but it can be like plant fats, you know, olive oil. Some people use olive oil. Some people use Neatsfoot oil, it’s like this really specific thing. I still don’t really fully understand what it is. You can use coconut oil. You could use…but I use bear fat. That’s really abundant in the places I’ve been living. And a lot of it is discarded every year during bear hunting season. And I try to…I keep in connection with the local game processor. So he gives me the fat and I render the fat and I gift a lot of that fat to the Passamaquoddy and Penobscot and pretty much any local indigenous folks who want it. And then the stuff that’s like not quality enough to gift. I keep for myself and use for hide and other stuff. And because that’s like the abundant fat of the landscape I’ve been living on.
Margaret 57:43
Yeah, as compared to like something like olive oil, which is basically people being like, here’s the thing that I think is cool that applies to a very different climate than…
Burdock 57:52
I mean if you dumpster dived that olive oil, you know, good on you.
Margaret 57:58
Okay, well, we’re almost out of time. But actually, one of the things I find so interesting about this is that like, rather than replicating, like just what was done before civilization or whatever…What was done before civilization was using available resources. And so we have such different available resources now. And so that’s why I love the inclusion of something like dumpster diving, or even like roadkill, right? Roadkill is not a very natural process. And again, it’s complicated, "natural," but whenever I’m using it. Yeah, you know, like things getting hit by the fact that I drive a giant fucking truck, like, I hate that but whatever. And, and so that’s actually one of things that’s really interesting to me. I really liked this thing that you’re talking about, like, "Okay, we find what is discarded and work with it." That’s like the part that really appeals to me the most, besides a preparedness point of view, the idea of working with refuse in a society that throws too much away, has always appealed to me. I no longer subsist off of dumpster diving, but I did for a very long time. And I really liked the idea of like dumpster diving the roads, you know? It’s interesting to me.
Burdock 59:11
That’s some major raccoon energy right there.
Margaret 59:14
Yeah, totally. Um, okay, well, what is the…Okay do you have any like final thoughts either about Earth skills, or about tannins, or why tannins are overrated, or anything like that?
Burdock 59:31
I love tannins and I love vegetable tanning, but it is definitely the highest effort kind of tanning because you need so much plant matter. So so so so so much. And it takes a lot of physical labor to process all of that. So if you can use rawhide, use rawhide, and if you can’t use rawhide, use buckskin, and if you can’t…or brain tan, and if you can’t use brain tan leather, then vegetable tan leather is is a good option. That’s kind of how I tried to approach it. And my other note is just that it takes way, way, way, way, way longer than you think it’s gonna take. And that’s a good thing. Learning any of these skills and doing any of these things.
Margaret 1:00:25
Because one of the things that…I was gonna leave the last word and then I keep thinking about things. I’m sorry. One of things I was thinking about I remember, because there’s this whole argument about like, did vikings wear leather. If you want to like fall down a weird rabbit hole, look at the fucking Norweeboos and arguing about that.
Burdock 1:00:42
[Squealing] The Viking discourse is so weird.
Margaret 1:00:47
Yeah. And when I try and…I really like writing Dark Age fantasy, right? I know [incoherent] Dark Ages, but I don’t like high medieval, I like low medieval. So I like writing early Middle Ages fantasy as…That is my sweet spot, right, Because they have the cooler helmets and swords barely exists. Anyway, whatever. Yeah. And arguments about leather and like leather clothing. Right? And. And there’s not a lot of historical record of people wearing leather clothing in Norweeboo land. What is that called? Norway, Sweden? And some of my listeners are there. I’m sorry. I’m a terrible person. So and, and so there’s all these arguments about it. But then I learned how much work was involved in making a yard of linen. Like to sew into clothes. And you’re talking about–I’m gonna get this number wrong because it’s been a while since I looked this up–it was like a week’s worth of work for someone to make a square yard of linen fabric. And so when I look at that, I’m like, "Yeah, of course they fucking wore leather. What the fuck? Why wouldn’t you?" But and then, I mean, you’ve gone over some reasons why you might not want it for some of your clothing. But, um, yeah. But that is an interesting thing that you’re bringing up about it takes way longer than you think. That was my train of thought. Sorry.
Burdock 1:02:13
Yeah, I mean, what if I told you that it also takes a week to manufacture a square foot of leather. I mean, that’s, that’s not necessarily true. For vegetable tanned leather, though, it takes longer than that. And that’s why I’m saying that’s a way bigger investment. And that’s something you don’t want to make every single thing out of. But, for like brain tanned leather, yeah. I guess in a week, you could produce six square feet. I mean, depending on who you are. Some people are fast, some people are slow. And if you’ve been doing it for a longer time, you can do it faster. And the weather conditions. And what the hide is doing. There’s so many factors.
Margaret 1:02:53
Fine. Back to linen I go. I mean, that’s more what I like wearing anyway. But anyway, okay, okay. Well, if people want to…I don’t even know whether, I can’t remember whether you do like…Should people try to find you on the internet? Would you prefer to not be found? What…Do you have anything that you want to plug here at the end of all things?
Burdock 1:03:14
[In a low and ornate voice] I don’t want anybody to find me? I just live secluded in the forest. [Switches to normal] No, I have an Instagram. My handle @scragetywocket and it’s all one word. Great. But if you can’t find me, that means I’ve changed my instagram handle to @huge_racc. [said like "Huge Rack"] And that’s RACC. I did a poll and everybody thinks I should change it to that. So I’m considering it. Which is referencing raccoons by the way.
Margaret 1:03:51
Yeah, of course. Totally.
Burdock 1:03:58
Okay, yeah. You can cut that out if you want.
Margaret 1:04:05
No, no, it’s staying in. Alright. Well, thank you so much for coming on. And explaining all of these things that I’m both incredibly interested in and incredibly terrified of learning. So thank you.
Burdock 1:04:19
Thank you. It’s been great to chat about all this stuff. Thanks for being open to it.
Margaret 1:04:23
Thank you so much for listening. If you enjoy this episode, then you should go live like a raccoon. That was the one takeaway that you should have had from this. Or, you should tell people about this episode and other episodes of Live Like the World is Dying. And you can also support us, you can support us by telling people about it, which is already covered, and you can support us on Patreon. Our Patreon is patreon.com/liveliketheworldisdying. And no, that’s not true. Our Patreon is patreon.com/strangersinatangledwilderness because I have to give everything long, complicated names. And Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness is an anarchist publishing collective that publishes a ton of stuff, including this podcast and including some other podcasts that you might like. If you back us, we will send you a zine in the mail. If you back us enough. I’ll read your name out right now. I want to thank Princess Miranda, BenBen, Anonymous–hell yeah, Anonymous–Funder. Also a good choice. Jans, Oxalis, Janice & O’dell, Paige, Aly, paparouna, Milica, Boise Mutual Aid, theo, Hunter, Shawn, S.J., Paige, Mikki, Nicole, David, Dana, Chelsea, Cat J., Staro, Jenipher, Eleanor, Kirk, Sam, Chris, Michaiah, and of course, Hoss the Dog. And that’s pretty much it. Everyone should take care as best as they can and don’t fall into an apocalyptic cult. Even though you listen to an apocalyptic podcast I run.
July 7, 2023EpisodesComments Off on S1E78 – Rot Glow Farm on Forest Farming Mushrooms
Episode Summary
B and M from Rot Glow Farm teach Inmn about how to farm mushrooms in the forest. They talk about their farm and growing set up, as well as the Lobelia Commons project they work with, and the Earthbound Almanac that they help put out.
Rot Glow Farm can be found on Instagram @RotGlowFarm.
Lobelia Commons can be contacted at lobeliacommons@protonnmail.com or found on Instagram @LobeliaCommons or on Twitter @LobeliaCommons.
Live Like the World is Dying: Rot Glow Farm on Forest Farming Mushrooms
Inmn 00:16
Hello, and welcome to Live Like the World is Dying, your podcast for what feels like the end times. I’m your host Inmn Neruin, and this week we’re going to be talking about something really fun. And that is fungi. Specifically, we’re going to be talking about how someone can grow mushrooms for food or medicine. And we’re going to be talking with the folks that operate Rot Glow Farm where they grow mushrooms in the forest. But first, this podcast is a proud member of the Channels Zero Network of anarchist podcasts and here’s a jingle from another show on the network. Doo do do doo doo doooo. [Making noises that sound like singing a melody]
Inmn 01:40
And we’re back. Thanks y’all so much for coming on to the podcast today. Would you like to introduce yourselves with your name, pronouns, and the farm that y’all are both part of and just tell us a little bit about about that project?
B 01:59
Sure. My name is B. My pronouns are they/them. We a part of Rot Glow Farm and are farmers in Mississippi, pretty close to New Orleans, about an hour and a half away.
M 02:16
Yeah, I am M. And he/they. And yeah, we’ve been farming here in southwestern Mississippi for three years.
Inmn 02:26
Cool. Cool. And could y’all tell us a little bit about like, what is Rot Glow Farm and what do y’all do there?
M 02:34
So we’re primarily a mushroom farm and tree nursery. We grow quite a bit of shiitake mushrooms outdoors on logs, which we take to market and most of the sales from the shiitakes goes into basically subsidizing this tree nursery that we have where we grow thousands of trees and give them away in New Orleans and rurally in Mississippi.
Inmn 03:07
Cool, cool. Like how did y’all get involved in doing this?
M 03:12
For me, several years ago, I read that book Mushroom At the End of the World, which was kind of a life changing book for me. And that got me really excited about mushrooms generally and fungi. That first manifested by growing shiitakes in New Orleans as part of a backyard gardening practice. And then, when the pandemic happened, some of us had been part of this project in New Orleans called Lobelia Commons, which is this…We define it as like a network for food autonomy and neighborhood survival. In that project, we started a collaborative mushroom group where we kind of learned together how to produce mushrooms, which would fit into a wider network of ways of producing food in the city. So, the way that first manifested was doing oyster mushrooms, workshops to do oyster mushrooms in buckets at a decent scale. And we then also started doing some production on logs. Then wanting to scale that up a bit, we were interested in growing shiitakes in the forest north of New Orleans. So then we started growing out here in Southern Mississippi. And yeah, that’s how I got here.
Inmn 04:53
B, How did you start to…Like what got you interested in in mushroom farming?
B 05:00
Yeah, so where I was living before, I was involved in mutual aid programs and just living in a place for a while and feeling sort of stagnant and feeling like the work that we were doing was great and impactful. But it…I just….I think my heart wasn’t in it. It felt more like a job, like going to my mutual aid job. And it felt more like charity than it did like actually connecting with people in a way that felt horizontal. And, I had a big life event and had to leave where I was living at and started to get involved with the Gulf South region through hurricane relief after [Hurricane] Ida. And so I was connecting more with people in this area. And I met M a few years prior and M and I were getting closer as friends and starting to meet more people who were doing this work that, to me, felt more aligned with my interests and my value system and also just something I was really fascinated by. And the mushroom farming was an aspect of that. And like M said prior, it helped us subsidize this thing that we do and the nursery growing that what we do and some of these other projects that were involved in. And, it felt sort of like a natural progression for myself because years prior I used to live in central California and had a fair amount of experience just walking through the woods and foraging mushrooms that were wild and talking with budding mycologists. And where I was living before, it was sort of like a casual culture of mushroom interest that people had. And so there’s like a annual fungi fair that happens every year in the area I was living before. And so I guess I had never really considered farming mushrooms. And M was already starting to cultivate that here. And once I was introduced to it, it felt like this really exciting thing, but yeah, it just kind of fell into my lap in this way what was like, "Oh, yeah, of course. That’s what I’m doing now." And yeah, like I said before, it’s not disconnected from anything else that we do. It feels really interconnected. And that’s what also makes it feel regenerative and worthwhile. Does that make sense?
Inmn 07:47
Yeah, totally. Totally. And I guess maybe this is silly question, but like, why…why mushrooms as opposed to like any other food or medicine thing that you could grow?
M 08:03
Um, so partially, the land that we inhabit here is a successionary forest, very young. Everything around us is pine plantation, mostly Lob lolly pine. We have a lot of like lob lolly here and a lot of young sweet gums, young oaks. And in…like, in some ways, the only way to farm at all here we would have to clear some woods. So, and on the one hand, it’s practical, because we also would like to grow large amounts of trees. So, we can’t grow trees in the middle of the forest. Well, we could, but it would take a very long time. And it wouldn’t be like really effective towards getting them in the hands of people who want to plant trees. So, we cleared some of the forests to have that nursery and small garden and, you know, meeting some local needs. So, with those trees, the sweet gums and the oaks in particular, we turn them into mushroom bolts is what they’re called, like blogs, basically. But I think beyond that, I think mushrooms are just like an extremely fascinating subject. They’re unlike anything else that you eat. I think they have something that’s kind of like indescribable or like uncanny. And I think when you get into conversations with people–especially like we’re often at farmers markets–there’s a way of finding, especially rurally like who the kinda secret freaks are. And like you know, it’s really hard to find each other out here. And mushrooms, I think is like kind of a little like, "wink wink," in some ways, and I think that that’s been a big asset for us. We met a few people through farmers markets like that.
Inmn 10:27
Like, mushrooms is like, more….Farming mushrooms is more common like, for people that you might feel more like the true freaks or something? Or?
M 10:38
I think not even just farming–I mean definitely farming–but I think, like in a good way and a bad way. There’s definitely some mushroom farmers who are like, maybe not freaks we’d like to hang out with on a lovely Saturday night. But I think the type of people that are drawn to are like going into the woods, getting down, and like looking at the Earth very close and that these super tiny things or sometimes, like really phallic things. Or, you know, like in all the all the forms…[B interrupts]
B 11:17
Yes. Slimy, stinky, like, yeah, voluptuous, like, disgusting. All of the brackets of signifiers. Yeah, and like you said, it takes a certain kind of attention and careful consideration and observation where you’re getting down on your hands and knees and just like you’re…There’s this one particular–I can’t remember what it’s called–but it’s a…there’s this one type of mushroom that grows just on Magnolia stuff, just the cones of magnolia trees. And it’s really teeny tiny. And you would never think to look for it if you didn’t know it was there. And there are just so many species of mushrooms that are hidden. If you just look a little bit closer on the bark of a pine tree, it’s this microscopic guy that just exists like in this one area, or, yeah, there’s just so many numerous species like that, that are fascinating to look at and to think about and so many species that are being discovered all the time. And then also just the queerness of mushrooms is fascinating and really interesting to think about when we’re thinking about the way things are reproducing and sex, of biological sex and how there’s like…What’s the one that the? [M interrupts to answer]
M 12:54
Schizophyllum.
B 12:57
Yeah, Schizophyllum. Has how many different sexes?
M 13:01
The common name is common split gill, and it has, I think it’s like 23,000 different distinct sexes. [Noises of incredulity from Inmn] You’ll see it everywhere, it goes pretty much full sun to like deep shade on all kinds of dead wood.
B 13:21
And the reason why it grows everywhere, right is because of how promiscuous it is and how adaptive it is. And so that’s like, part of its ability to reproduce so successfully is because of the wide diversity of sex that it’s able to inhabit.
M 13:40
Yeah, I think it’s something like any one individual of that fungus can reproduce with like, it’s like 96% or 98% of all total of that species, total individuals of that species. Which so cool.
B 13:58
Yeah, and that’s just, you know, that’s just one particular grouping. When you start to go through them, it’s…I mean, yeah, it’s infinite.
Inmn 14:12
Yeah. That’s, that’s really cool. Um, I’ve heard that in, like, in the southeast that, old growth gets talked about a little bit differently than, like on the West Coast, for example. Where like, like an old growth forest has like more to do with the amount of fungal interactions that are going on than it has to do with like, the size or the age of the trees necessarily. Is that, is that true?
M 14:44
It’s, it’s, that might be…I might not be totally qualified to answer to that. But my inclination is that that’s a glass-half-full way of looking at the situation with southeastern forests, which is unfortunately the southeastern long leaf pine forests, which are, you know, amazing and, unfortunately exist only in fractions of fractions of fractions of its former glory like, you know often gets compared, like the type of biodiversity that gets compared to the Amazon rainforest. And I think a lot of that is in the soil, like particularly the Russulaceae, the Russula laurocerasi is extremely diverse in the southeast. And that’s, that’s a mycorrhizal mushroom that you’ll often see it’s like kind of the one that is, has a brittle cap, often red caps, but has quite a diverse array of colors, green, purple, blue, there’s even a yellow. But yeah, and that’s just the one’s that you’ll see quite a lot.
Inmn 16:09
Cool. Cool. To switch a little bit, it seems like maybe it’s like a practical decision since y’all live in a forest, but like, why kind of doing like forest farming? Like as opposed to like…I guess I don’t know how people normally grow mushrooms. But like, yeah, is there something that’s different about forest farming for y’all than like how a lot of people might go about cultivating mushrooms?
B 16:43
So yeah, so, if you’re growing mushrooms outdoors, you could probably have a very elaborate way of creating shade and humidity and the kinds of things that you need in order to grow mushrooms on logs. But, it just makes sense because you’re as a person who’s growing mushrooms on logs, you’re…in some ways, you’re replicating what would be occurring in the wild, and how those mushrooms would be occurring on decomposing wood or logs in the wild. And so it sort of does the work for you of…I mean, you’re already in a forest. So, instead of putting that in an indoor setting, which a lot of people will do this where they’ll they’ll have, you know, a sterile, often sterile environment indoors, they’ll have bags of mushrooms–and I don’t know that much about it because I don’t do it myself–but from what I’ve read about it and talked to people about it, you’re able to really dial in the exact conditions that these mushrooms would need to produce. Whereas, in an outdoor setting, you’re exposed to whatever kinds of temperature increases or decreases and you’re exposed to the seasons and, you know, if there’s a drought that year, or whatever it is, and so the forest is going to help maintain the environment that you’re going to need to be able to grow those mushrooms. Does that sum it up? I don’t know,
M 18:37
I think I would add, like a question that we get asked a lot by, especially by other farmers whether or not they’re mushroom farmers, is that they’ll ask what our acreage is. Which doesn’t matter. You know, like if you have any amount of space and you have a way to make shade, and you’re not just sitting on concrete, you can grow mushrooms outdoors, pretty much. So that one doesn’t matter. But they often ask like, "Why don’t you…I’m sure you can get a grant. Why don’t you put in like an indoor space, or like a warehouse? You know, you’ve got plenty of space to put in a warehouse." And it’s like okay, you have to like just clear cut a bunch of forests where mushrooms are already happening. Fungi are everywhere, you know, raised, you know, in their perfect condition. We already have the perfect condition. It’s just like yeah…And I mean, obviously this comes from farmers are very concerned with yields, and productivity, and stuff, which totally makes sense. Like, obviously that’s like a capitalist mindset. But, we also have to eat, you know. Like, if the mushrooms don’t fruit then we can’t go to market. And, we eat a lot of shiitakes. We also just eat less of that stuff. So, I understand where that comes from. But, I think our wager with forest farming has been that we really need to try and try and try new things. Like, the way things have been running for, you know, 300 years in this area hasn’t hasn’t been working, simply put. So, this is one effort to try something that’s different, that’s maybe not motivated by capitalist economics and colonial mentality. Yeah. And hopefully it works out.
B 20:51
Yeah I mean, I’m right. That’s, that’s it, we’re, I guess, generally…I mean, maybe in the future, we would experiment with doing some indoor space just to try it because I personally, I’ve never done that before. So it would be interesting to see. And I think for folks who are trying to really scale up, there is some sense in doing something indoors, because you can really dial it in and you can maximize the amount of space that you have for the amount of yield that you’re able to get from being able to manipulate your environment in such a way that you’re able to get it. You know, like you can calculate exactly how much you’re gonna get. And, I guess really, the point is just that we’re trying to sort of move away from having this artificial spaces that takes a lot of energy to create, especially where we are. I mean, thinking about climate controlling an indoor space to be able to produce mushrooms in the dead of summer, you know, where it’s like, you know, 100 and get gets up to like 115, sometimes, like 110 degrees. It sort of goes against the path that we’re trying to go down, which is to take ourselves out of that cycle of constant resource extraction and constant, which is like cultivation, or like artificial cultivation to be able to make as much money as possible in the shortest amount of time. We feel like, yeah, just trying to sort of see it in a different way and show others that it can be done in a different way. And also that like yeah, of course, it’s not going to be as profitable, but I feel like the process in figuring it out and trying it is worth the setbacks. Like for example, recently, this last spring, we didn’t have as much shiitake yields as we thought we would have. And we’re not really totally sure why that is. But, our reishi did really well. And we’re still…We’re still troubleshooting why that happened. And if we were operating a completely indoor space, I think it would be pretty simple to figure out, okay, well, you know, we didn’t have this humidity, or like, our air conditioning unit broke down for this one week or, you know, we tried this one strain that maybe wasn’t as viable as like a different strain. But, I think there’s something about that, that it forces you to really look at your environment and be forced to be more connected to where you’re at and the kinds of species that are growing. And like for example, we’re growing on sweet gums and oaks. And so we’re starting to think "Okay, well, is it…Do the sweet gums maybe not last as long. Do they maybe last two years or three years rather than four years? Are the oaks better to be growing on rather than sweet gums? And that’s all being figured out through trial and error. But, it feels like important long term information to be gathering. Albeit, might be frustrating to be like "What the fuck, why isn’t…why aren’t they fruiting as much as they were last year?" or whatever it is.
Inmn 24:34
Yeah, yeah. It’s wild to me that someone would question why you would grow a thing in the place where it naturally grows. [Said sarcastically and then laughing]
M 24:47
Yeah, and I mean, to be fair, it’s like, you know, shiitakes not from here. Reishi is. But, it [shiitake] does quite well in the in the woods here.
B 24:58
But then you know, we’re going to markets and there are these other growers that are growing indoors and you have a bunch of mushrooms, and they’re selling, you know, they’re selling as much as they possibly can get out into the market. And for us, we’re like, "Oh, shit, we don’t really have that much to offer this Spring," because we’re more at the whim of what’s going on in the world around us than if we were operating in an indoor space, which like, it makes sense that people would choose that because it’s…it’s a lot…It’s something you can count on. And especially if you’re counting on it for your survival or your your livelihood, then like, it does make sense if you have that startup capital that you would decide to do it that way inside.
Inmn 25:46
Yeah, yeah. If y’all didn’t like…Like, if someone were growing, or cultivating shiitake or like reishi logs in the forest where they lived, what can the yields be like, on that? Like, if someone was just growing mushrooms for their own consumption? Like, what would that be like for someone?
M 26:13
So, I think that there’s a really good PDF online from Cornell, that–I think he’s named Steve Gabriel–put out. He’s a professor there with the [undecipherable] there. And it has…Like, if someone is getting involved in growing on logs, specifically, it’s kind of like "the book." It’s like a 40 page PDF, and it has so much good information. But, I think you’ll see there and many other places, a claim that each log per year will produce about a pound of shiitakes. That’s just for shiitake. I think we’ve found that to be fairly accurate. And in some cases, low. But, for instance, reishi, it’s going to be much lower. And Reishi, as you grow it in on the ground, it loves…like it wants like 90% humidity, 95% humidity. The longevity of the log is up for question in terms of like, do you get termites. We get termites here. So, the longevity is up for question. But what we’ve found is, depending on the size of the log, you can get quite large flushes. I’m not sure if we’ve ever actually weighed them because we don’t…we don’t take those to market. We mostly just get them out to friends to make medicine with. But, I would say even with one log…Yeah, without being able to quantify it–and partially not really wanting to mediate everything through like a measurement–it’s absolutely worth it. Even if you only have one reishi log, you can make quite a lot of tincture or tea with what that would produce for one year. You can probably expect a couple of caps minimum. They might be quite large caps. Yeah, I personally haven’t found a rhyme or reason to why they’re bigger or smaller.
B 28:17
Yeah, it’s really fun. Like, even if you’re not interested in growing on a bigger scale or like feeding your family or whatever it is and you just want to try it because you’re simply interested in it. I think that it’s so worth it to invest in the startup costs of getting yourself a drill bit, or something that goes on an angle grinder, and inoculating a couple logs, putting them in the shade and looking at that PDF, and just getting going on it because yeah, it’s just it’s a really interesting thing to take part in. And it’s so fun, and it can be really rewarding. And it might lead you to starting to connect with your local mycological club or connecting with other people that are growing mushrooms. And yeah, it can be really rewarding. So yeah, I just, I’d like to encourage people that maybe they’re listening to this, and they’re like, "Oh, well, I wouldn’t want to do that on like a large scale or maybe it just seems like too complicated." It’s pretty simple.
M 29:31
Yeah, I would, in terms of like investment, I would definitely say that–and we had the experience in New Orleans, specifically, where this worked very well–would be to team up, you know. There’s other people out there, either through a local mycological club. Some regions have like really robust robust ones and might, you know, likely have people who are already growing. So you wouldn’t have to buy any kind of drill or drill bit or the like plunger things. And doing it together, it’s like a really great social activity. We do kind of like a festival of sorts every year when we do the inoculation time, and people kind of look forward to it, and we’re all like working together and not too hard, you know, just like, it’s a…it’s a really fun time. And I would encourage, especially like, building a culture around that can be really rewarding. And if you are just on your own, listening to the podcast, and really want to grow mushrooms, but you don’t know anyone who’s interested in it, that’s…I mean, that’s how I started. Me and my roommate were the only two people I knew that were interested in it. And there’s like…they sell inoculated dowel rods online, which, you just basically just drill into logs, and you hammer into the log. So, it doesn’t…you don’t need like a whole gang of people inoculating, you know? You can absolutely do it on your own as well.
Inmn 31:06
Cool. I know there’s this book/PDF, that y’all reference that lays out the process probably pretty pretty well, but would you mind kind of just breaking down like what the process is like? Like, how would you set up a like a log for growing mushrooms. Just like the kind of like a breakdown of the steps.
M 31:33
So first, you’re sourcing your log. So that could look like a lot of different things. You could be felling the tree your yourself, you could be maybe talking to a tree company that sometimes has extra logs. There could be a storm and you just find a log on the side of the road. Any of those are fine. The recommendation is–and we have found this to be true–that you want the tree to be dormant and already healthy. You wouldn’t want it to be already infected with some other fungal pathogen. Like if it’s living, it already has something some other mycelium running through it. [Interrupted]
B 32:18
Because that would out compete what you’re trying to inoculate it with.
M 32:24
So, you want something healthy. So let’s just go with from felling, which is what we do. Fell the tree. Buck it up, so like cut it into like a manageable size. So, for shiitakes, for instance, we find that somewhere between like, four inch and eight inch diameter [log]. I feel like once it gets wider than that it’s starts to get cumbersome because you have to move them around if you’re forcing them. But, if you’re leaving them just in your backyard and not not ever touching them, you don’t have to worry about that quite as much. But just you don’t want to like, you know, hurt your back when you’re working on them. So, you cut them up into what’s called bolts. Then you let them sit. This is something that’s a kind of debated, some people will tell you that you need to inoculate the next day or as soon as humanly possible from felling. Some people will tell you three to four weeks waiting, to basically let the tree kind of fully die and make it so it’s it’s not going to challenge your mycelium that you’re putting into the log. I tried kind of all of that. And it doesn’t seem to matter in our case, dealing with oak and sweet gums. We’ve inoculated the next day and we’ve inoculated four weeks later. So long as it’s not fully…you’re starting to see like other fungal growth on the log, you’ll be good. And even if you do have a log that has, like, you know, like we were saying, already has fungal pathogen in it, or you fell it and then you wait too long and you see that like on the edge, often you’ll see like where you cut the log start to become black. Even if that’s happening, it will probably be fine. You just might not get as long of a yield because basically after you inoculate them, they’re competing for space inside the log. So, inoculation looks like you basically either produce or order spawn. Likely if you’re listening to this, you’re ordering spawn. There’s a number of good places to order from. We use Field and Forest, for what it’s worth. I don’t necessarily endorse them, but what’s cool about them is on their website, they have a ton of information about each of their strains and how it performs. And…[interrupted]
B 35:07
And like what temperatures it does well in.
M 35:11
Yeah. They’re like, kind of like…The US shiitake industry was kind of built around what they started in the 70s. But, there’s also, if you’re in the South, there’s Mushroom Mountain, run by Tradd. Cotter. But, so you put the spawn into the log by drilling and then plunging in the spawn and then sealing it in.
Inmn 35:42
What is the spawn?
M 35:43
The spawn is either sawdust or grain that the company, in this case Field and Forest or Mushroom Mountain, has inoculated with a strain of a fungus.
B 35:58
So ,it comes in a bag. And they’re plastic bags. And they…they sort of they seal them. But Okay, start that one over. They come in these bags, these plastic bags, and you just…It looks sort of like a brick, like a fuzzy, creamy brick. That’s all of the mycelium that’s colonized that sawdust or brand or whatever it is. Grain. And so you just open up your bag, and you take a handful of it, and you break it up so that it’s sort of mixed up, and then you’ll take your plunger, which is just…it’s like a handheld…it looks like a short dowel, and you plunge it and it captures the spawn in a compartment that is at the base of the plunger, and then pull it up–It’s sort of like the way a syringe works or something–so you pull it up, and then you put it on your hole that you’ve drilled out of your log, and then you plunge it into the hole. And then once you’ve plunged it into that hole, it fills up the whole hole. And you’ll sort of like tap the top of it to make sure that it’s all the way full because sometimes your plunger might not capture all of the amount of space that’s like the compartment at the end of the plunger. And so it might be kind of loose at the top. So, you just kind of like tap it to make sure it’s all the way full. And then what we do is we heat up golf wax in a crock pot and we use these little foam applicator brushes, you know, like the kids arts and crafts ones. We have found that those are the best to seal plugs because they capture a lot of wax that we’re going to be using to seal the hole. And, you can just kind of dab it and then the wax comes out really well. And, you want to make sure the wax that you’re using is hot enough. We use golf wax. But, it’s hot enough that it’s clear when you’re applying it to your hole to seal it up. Because if it’s not clear, it’ll it will be opaque. And it just means that it’s not hard enough. And so it sometimes works. But, often what happens is you put it on opaque and it kind of seems like it’s done the job, but then you wait a few hours or a couple of days and that whole piece that you sealed up will just kind of crack and pop off. So, you just want to make sure it’s hot enough that it penetrates that hole and makes a good seal. And you just kind of dab on your little applicator and then seal it up.
Inmn 39:08
Okay, and what is the wax? Like? What is it keeping in? Like what’s happening inside that hole?
M 39:17
So, it protects the spawn from drying out is probably the primary thing that it’s doing. And, it protects from fungal competitors. So, one that we often are concerned with is Trichoderma which is like a blue green mold. And also, it will to some extent protect from getting predated on by birds and rodents. But, I think that they eventually will get through it. The goal is to basically…You’re giving your team, you know, your your fungus, the best chance at it digesting the log, or what a lot of people called colonizing the log. Basically, as soon as you put the spawn into the log, it’s going to start moving through the wood and digesting wood. And, once it has completely taken up the wood, or, again, fully colonized the wood, that’s when it’s ready to start fruiting.
Inmn 40:27
Okay, so it’s like…And, you know–maybe everyone who’s listening knows this–but it’s like the fruiting body or like the piece that we eat is like very…Like, what is the the body of the fungus? Like, like, what’s it like? What’s it like inside there?
M 40:49
Yes, so it’s, it’s mycelium. People are probably familiar with this. I think oftentimes people assume that mycelium is just like in the forest floor like the mycorrhizal network. But, it’s also the body of the fungus that…In this case, we grow what’s called saprobic mushrooms or saprobic fungi. They eat dead stuff. And they also are made up of mycelium. And then you’re right, the mushroom is the fruiting body, the sexual organ, and what produces the spores, which will then go on to germinate on whatever surface that species requires.
B 41:40
Yeah, and so, when you’re getting those bags in the mail, you know, and you’re breaking up the spawn to inoculate with your plunger, that’s the body. That’s…You’re breaking up the body, basically, and you’re putting it in the log, and then it’s doing the same thing that it did to the sawdust or the grain where it’s moving through the log. And so, I guess to be able to picture it, you’ll see it sort of when you get it. If you get it in that bag form, you can sort of see how it moves through and clumps in that particular strain anyway.
Inmn 42:23
That is very weird and freaky.
B 42:27
Yeah, you should, if you’re interested, I highly recommend trying to, or getting some and, you know, breaking it up with your your fingers is a really interesting sensation. It’s sort of like cool and smooth but also has a lot of texture to it. And the way it breaks apart is sort of fibrous,
Inmn 42:51
Cool. Yeah, that sounds that sounds like a freaky texture experience. I want to try it. Cool. And so then like once the logs are fully colonized, they start producing these fruiting bodies. What like…What…Or I feel like I always ask funny leading questions because I like vaguely know the answers, but like what kind of conditions do they then need to produce fruiting bodies? Like, I imagine a lot of moisture. Or do you have to water them? Or?
B 43:30
Yeah, so it depends on your climate. But you have to keep a certain level of shade and humidity in the fruiting yard. And so for us, we’ve had to experiment with shade cloth and trying to grow up certain trees to make more shade or less shade. And so that’s something that folks who are listening would have to figure out based on where they’re at and their particular climate and situation. But, if you want, for us, before we’re about to go to a market, about 10 days prior to wanting a fully formed mushroom to take to market, we do what we call force fruiting. Also we call it dunking. So, we have a cattle trough, and we put–we have what we call groups–so every year we’ll label group one, group two, group three, and it will help keep organized to know which groups that we’ve brought in or which ones we haven’t. And so let’s say we have group one. So, let’s say it’s 12 logs. And so we put all of our logs that we’ve stacked in like log cabin style stacks…Is that we you call it? [M makes an affirmative noise] And so that’s just to maintain aeration and make it so that they don’t get too crowded out. And so we’ll take each one of those, put them in our cattle trough that’s filled up with water. And then we sort of weigh it down because once the mycelium moves through them, the logs start to get more pithy because the mycelium are eating through that wood. And so the logs will get lighter and lighter weight as you go on. But also wood floats in general, so we just have to weigh those down. And then we keep them in overnight, usually around 24 hours. And they have to be–they don’t have to be like totally fully submerged–but generally, yes, like submerge them. And then we take the weight off. And some people will do it and really like cute ways where they have like…What does that guy do where he puts them in some…. [Interrupted]
M 45:55
There’s a few places where they’re like super picturesque, you know. Yeah, they’ll put them in a creek and they’ll have a little section, roped off or whatever. And it’s just like it…which is actually, you know, if you have that, that is the perfect place because if you think about how shiitake evolved, you know, that we’re basically mimicking like a cool spring flood or rain, you know, a heavy rain event. Like actually one of the heaviest fruitings we’ve had was, like, the week after Hurricane Ida because it was such a disturbance event. And that’s basically what we’re trying to mimic. So, you have these these people that have these gorgeous farms, they put them in the creek or a pond or something sometimes, yeah.
B 46:45
But so, we’ll take them out 24 hours later. And then we lean them up against sort of a makeshift shelf type thing and make it so that there’s enough space between each of them so they’re not fruiting into each other. And we just wait about 10 days and sometimes the individual mushrooms will go at different timescales, but generally they’ll all fruit around the same time and they’ll all be developed around the same time. And then we harvest and go to market and then we put in the next group.
Inmn 47:24
Cool that..I mean, that whole process sounds kind of like wacky and ridiculous but in you know, like a really fun way. Like, I could grow them like inside where I live, but I live in a desert so we we…It’d be pretty hard to. Although, we do… So, it’s wild. We do have these like during the monsoons, if you go hiking up in like really rocky mountains the like, all of the dried lichen, because there is dried lichen, and it will like flesh out and get like carpet-y and like poofy for like a day or two and then it like dries up again. It’s weird. [Everyone goes "Whoa."]
B 48:09
Yeah. Also, I was just thinking of your cave…I feel like I’ve heard of these caves in Tucson. Yeah. Okay, good. Yeah.
Inmn 48:30
Cool. So, the other thing that I wanted to have y’all talk about is y’all put out an Almanac, right?
M 48:42
Yeah, so we’re part of the group Lobelia Commons, which puts out…or, some members of that group put out the Earthbound Farmers Almanac. And we are going into our fourth year doing that.
Inmn 48:57
Cool, what like…What kind of Almanac is it? Like, does it have specialized information? Or like what information is in this?
M 49:07
So, it’s primarily land-based knowledge would be kind of like what it specializes in. It’s like not necessarily focused on farming, per se, but more skills and thoughts around being on land and what that means in our current climate. And I think pulling on a urge to build new cultures of being land. Kind of like, obviously there’s a legacy of radicals getting back to–of course with the 60s with Back To the Land–but trying to forge something that grapples with the world we’re in today. Of course of climate change, trying to sharpen a anticolonial…While also simultaneously trying to build this culture that would sort of fill a void in some ways because there’s been so much damage done by genocide and just colonization and settler shit. So, people might not have something like a knowledge base to pull from, whether or not they’re indigenous, settler, Black, or what have you, living on Turtle Island. We are, unfortunately fairly dispossessed in a fairly general way from ecological knowledge that is really critical for the world we’re entering.
Inmn 51:11
Yeah, cool. What would be kind of like a sample of like information that, or like kinds of information that might might be in there?
B 51:26
So, something to note is that we’re…we just put out our 2023 Almanac. And we can like link in the show notes, where to get that. Emergent Goods is distributing it for us. But we also are putting a call out for submissions for 2024. And, I feel like this is a good moment to sort of list the kinds of submissions that we’re looking for. And it also summarizes past editions and the kind of content that is in there. So, anticolonial histories and features, critical agri-ecology, recipes from the land, stories from your neighbors, climate change noticings, traditions to uplift or destroy, farm notes, and just I mean, really whatever you feel like is relevant and close to you in this time and what would ring true for others and inspire and uplift others In the moment that we’re in.
M 52:40
Oh, yeah, but the entire first three, and for the future, everyone we put out in the feature, can be found at Earthbound.farm. A lovely collected member just made this site today. You can just look at them online and get tons of examples. If people are listening to this because they’re interested in mushrooms, particularly, they might be curious to check out the 2021 issue which has some, like a detailed how to grow mushrooms using coffee grounds, growing oyster mushrooms on coffee grounds. And this is something that the person who wrote this, who also is the person who made that lovely website, actually, they were growing quite a lot of oyster mushrooms. She has coffee grounds that they were keeping from their coffee habit. And there’s also in that one a nice introduction to foraging to try and kind of abate the general mycophobia that exists in our culture. But there’s all kinds of stuff. There’s recipes. Like, I think that one has like a recipe for a fig cake, which I’ve never had but sounds really really good. There’s cool like almanac-y information like, you know. For those outside of the Gulf Coast, New Orleans area, some of the almanac information isn’t quite as pertinent, but I think it’s maybe an inspiration for people to start noticing those types of things in their life on that almanac, those almanac pages, the monthly kind of like phase of the moon, day length, that types of things. Also we include each year, farm notes from a different farm or nursery projects or what have you. The most recent one, I’m a big fan of, it’s someone who doesn’t have…He doesn’t like own land, doesn’t have like a cool urban farm, but is really just like in love with the world and loves noticing birds and, you know, goes hunting and so is, you know, following elk and, you know, is trying to grow things and moves all over. It’s like a dispossessed person that just rents, you know, where they can. And there’s there’s a piece in the 2023 Almanac about basically how to develop this type of practice. And it’s very witty, and I just really love that piece that came in at like, the 11th hour. And yeah, really appreciate these. Recommend.
Inmn 55:44
Cool. Yeah, that sounds great. I’m definitely going to check out the old Earthbound Almanacs. Cool. Well, that brings us about to our time for the day. Is there any anything else you want to plug before we go? Or any last minute thoughts on on things that we didn’t cover that you’d love to mention?
M 56:09
No, yeah, I think I would just, once again, encourage people, if you’re a writer, or like, don’t fashion yourself a writer, but might have some thoughts about growing or whatever. Just like really, really, really feel free to send us a pitch. Doesn’t have to be very long. Just give us like an idea of what you want to write. You know, worst case we’re like can you flesh this out a little bit more and tell us what you’re thinking. But you can email us LobeliaCommons@protonmail.com. And if you’re not inclined to write or anything like that, but maybe you’re a photographer, or illustrator, send us some examples that, you know, we would love to include. We like always need illustrations and photos. And none of the above, but you are really interested in it as project, we send copies of the almanac, like entire boxes, to groups, all over the place. And we just ask that people cover the shipping and the cost of the printing. And then in good faith, we let people sell it for, you know, to benefit, whatever cause that they are like locally interested in supporting. So, this oftentimes is like a local food autonomy project, maybe like a pipeline resistance, the campaign to Stop Cop City. Can be all kinds of stuff.
Inmn 57:52
Cool. Great. Well, we will we’ll link to all those things in the show notes. And thanks, y’all so much for coming on and teaching us about mushroom farming.
B 58:04
Thanks for having us.
Inmn 58:05
Thanks so much for listening. If you enjoyed this podcast, please go grow some mushrooms and then tell us about it. But also tell people about the podcast. You can support this podcast by telling people about it. You can support this podcast by talking about it on social media, by rating and reviewing, doing whatever the nameless algorithm calls for. Feed it like a hungry god. And you can support us on Patreon at patreon.com/strangersinatangledwilderness. Our Patreon helps pay for things like transcriptions, or our lovely audio editor, Bursts, as well as going to support our publisher Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness. We put out this podcast and a few other podcasts including my other podcast Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness, a monthly podcast of anarchist literature, and the Anarcho Geek Power Hour, which is the podcast for people who love movies and hate cops. And we would like to shout out some of those patrons in particular. Thank you Trixter, Princess Miranda, BenBen, Anonymous, Funder, Jans, Oxalis, Janice & O’dell, Paige, Ali, paparouna, Milica, Boise Mutual Aid, theo, Hunter, Sean, S.J., Paige, Mikki, Nicole, David, Dana, Chelsea, Cat J., Staro, Jenipher, Eleanor, Kirk, Sam, Chris, Michaiah, and Hoss the Dog. We seriously couldn’t do this without y’all. I hope everyone is doing as well as they can with everything that’s happening and we’ll talk to you soon.
June 30, 2023EpisodesComments Off on S1E77 – This Month In the Apocalypse: June, 2023
Episode Summary
This time on This Month In the Apocalypse, Brooke and Inmn talk about storms, extreme flooding, and the deadly heat dome. They talk about a lot going on in the ocean, including orca attacks, the Ocean Gate submersible, and El Nino. They also talk about mostly bad things for trans people. However, there are some fun instances of fascists beating each other up.
Brooke
Hello and welcome to Live Like the World is Dying, your podcast for what feels like the end times. This is your early summer June-ish installment of our segment This Month In the Apocalypse. I am Brooke Jackson and co-hosting with me today is the very delightful Inmn. Our podcast is a proud member of the Channel Zero Network of anarchist podcasts. And before we explore today’s episode, we’d like to share a little jingle from another pod on the network. JIngle jangle, jingle jangle. [Brooke singing a simple melody]
Brooke
And we’re back. Hey Inmn, how are you feeling today?
Inmn
I’m, I’m feeling fairly good today, Brooke. But you know, a lot of bad things happened in June. But also, some really funny things happened in June. So…
Brooke
This is true. You wanna hear the funniest thing that happened? I bet you have one, but I have one that’s gonna be funnier.
Inmn
Yeah, yeah. There’s a couple of funny things that we’ll get to. How are you, Brooke?
Brooke
I’m good. I like that we’ve swooped in and taken this podcast away from Margaret. Just kidding. She’s dealing with other stuff. We miss her terribly. And, she trusted us to do this whole episode on our own.
Inmn
Yeah, because we’re real people.
Brooke
And I’m so excited about that. Do you want to hear really funny story?
Inmn
Yes.
Brooke
Okay, so Portland, Oregon always does a big Pride celebration on–well it’s usually it’s a Sunday, I think–in June and it’s often fallen on Father’s Day because of terrible planning and timing. And this year it finally didn’t for once. So, it was having his big Pride celebration. I think this was just a week ago. And both the Proud Boys and the Rose City Nationalists showed up to protest Pride, except both groups showed up to the wrong location. And they showed up to the same wrong location. And they got in a fight with each other instead of fighting and protesting Pride.
Inmn
Wow, do you know that the fight was…Like, why did they fight?
Brooke
There’s some videos you can find on like Twitter and the Proud Boys are attacking the Rose City Nationalists and they’re calling them racists. And the Rose City Nationalists are in like khaki pants and blue shirt, you know, that full face covering thing. What does they call that? Something. And like hats. And the Proud Boys are a bunch of older white dudes, burly biker gang kind of guys, and they’re yelling at them for being like punk kids, and wearing masks, and being racist. They just kick the shit out of them.
Inmn
Maybe just because I don’t know totally who they are; who are the Rose City Nationalists?
Brooke
Oh, there are local to Portland chapter of one of the white nationalist groups in the US.
Inmn
Okay. What…Do you know why did the Proud Boys think that they’re racist?
Brooke
I think if I remember correctly, I think they’re like a neo-Nazi affiliated group, the nationalists, and they think it’s really weak of them to wear full face coverings and not show their faces when they show up to events and to be in like matching outfits. I think they mock that too when they’re getting into the fight, how they’re in their little khaki and blue shirt uniform thing.
Inmn
Wow. That is…You know, if all of the white supremacists want to like fight each other and spend all their time doing that, I would be thrilled.
Brooke
The best outcome to a Pride protest ever, two asshole groups showing up at the wrong location and fighting each other instead.
Inmn
Oh, that’s just wonderful.
Brooke
A big thanks to friend of the pod, Alex, for sending me all of the videos from this and news articles and stuff. I’ve just been laughing about that all week. I keep thinking about it and just chuckling
Inmn
I have a similarly…you know, it’s like a something bad happened, but also something funny happened kind of thing. All right.
Brooke
Let’s go. I like funny news.
Inmn
Okay, so, ongoing anti-trans legislation across the country and in Texas. Yeah, it’s pretty bad. But, Michelle Evans who’s like…I think she’s a Texas House Representative candidate and some kind of like legislative Director for some wacky organization that is trying to do weird things around COVID vaccines. She was at the Texas State Capitol to celebrate SB14, which is a bill that was signed into legislation that blocks doctors from providing gender affirming care to minors, which is pretty horrifying.
Brooke
It’s awful.
Inmn
Yeah, it is. It is not as bad as SB 1029, which would essentially defund all gender affirming care for anyone in the state of Texas. It’s through some pretty interestingly deceptive means. Like, it blocks use of public funds for those things, which sends this ripple effect through….because you could be like, “Oh, What about like, you know, private providers? Wouldn’t they still be able to provide care for people?” And the answer is probably not. Because, the public funding affects things like malpractice insurance or insurance providers in general. And so it’s essentially, private doctors who don’t receive public funding for doing gender affirming care, would essentially not be able to get insured because of this funding that’s being…would be taken away. So…
Brooke
It’s not okay. So not okay. These bills make me so angry. And I feel like every time we do one of these episodes, we’re talking about another state, another place, another layer of these bills, and it’s not just like, “Oh, they’re considering this,” like it’s that these bills are passing in various places.
Inmn
Yeah, and SB 1029 has not passed in Texas, but SB 14, which blocks gender affirming care for minors, did pass. But, Michelle Evans was there at the Capitol celebrating and she confronted a trans woman in the bathroom. The altercation reportedly like involved some verbal harassment of this person. And then Michelle claims, she claims that she was sent a picture of this person in the bathroom.
Brooke
That’s creepy.
Inmn
Yeah, by one of her followers. That’s what she says. But she…It’ll make sense in a moment. Okay, so she tweeted this out to her following and it very rapidly, you know, went viral and there were people commenting to her about it, being like, “Hey, you know, it’s illegal to film people in the bathroom, right?” And she was…While she was still at the Capitol, she was detained by the Capitol Police and got her phone confiscated and she was questioned about the photo being like….They were like, “Oh, we heard that you tweeted this photo of someone in the bathroom.” And she was like, “Oh, but I didn’t take the picture.” You know, or so she claims. And yeah, so she is still under investigation for taking a picture of someone in the bathroom, which is against the law it turns out in Texas.
Brooke
Oh, there’s a ray of sunshine in this awfulness. And that’s like, I mean, even if…Okay. Laws, not laws. Anarchism….You know, it’s confusing. But, It’s wrong, whether or not it’s legal or illegal, it’s just like, your own internal ethics should tell you that that’s wrong to do. So it’s nice that there’s repercussions for it in some way.
Inmn
Yeah, you know, like, I don’t…like I’m not down with the State existing or laws or like, whatever. But I’m absolutely not going to have sympathy for anyone who, like, might end up getting charges for filming people in the bathroom because that’s fucked up. So, I’m curious if it’ll catch on as like any kind of thing or like piece of resistance that people can do for like being harassed in bathrooms, like wherever they are, is to like….if you get filmed in the bathroom, it’s like…I’m wondering if more people will end up catching charges for filming people in the bathroom who they believe to be trans.
Brooke
Right, you know, but then now, as you say that, I realized the flip side of it. If you’re someone who’s being verbally or whatever, assaulted, attacked in the bathroom, like, you shouldn’t get in trouble for filming the way someone’s mistreating you. But, the law doesn’t, you know, have that caveat to it.
Inmn
Yeah, it’s dumb. Yeah. But luckily, a lot of these people who are confronting people in bathrooms are like, incriminating themselves, I think. Mostly.
Brooke
Yeah, that is handy. Like, if you’re the bad guy and you’re taking the video, thanks for the evidence and doing the thing that’s illegal and getting you in trouble. I just feel bad for the person who’s on the receiving end of the assaults, and them maybe feeling like, “Oh, I can’t document this because it’s illegal to film in here.”
Inmn
Yeah, yeah. So yeah, a thing for people to think about. So, that was a kind of funny thing.
Brooke
That had better ending than I was expecting. So thank you for that.
Inmn
Yeah. Um, do you want to hear some more kind of bad news, though, for trans folks in the news this month?
Brooke
No, I don’t. But I also don’t want to be an ignorant…to live in ignorance. So you can tell me.
Inmn
Okay. So Elon Musk, you know, is in the news, again.
Brooke
Oh God, I know where this is going.
Inmn
Elon announced that “Cis” and “Cis gendered,” like those terms, are going to be slurs on Twitter and that targeted use of them could be grounds for account suspension on Twitter.
Brooke
Just when you think he’s not done being the worst, he finds new ways to be just the absolute worst.
Inmn
I know. And like, I’m like…I feel like he just does it for the media cycle or whatever. Like, every time he like dips out of the news, he’s like, “Oh, I’ll just like, ridicule trans people and get back in the new cycle.”
Brooke
He just needs the attention one way or the other. All attention is good attention, including negative. Speaking of horrible rich people, actually, I have one for you, which is going slightly out of the order that we talked about earlier, but I think it’s fun to put it in here. There’s a company called Ocean Gate that has developed its own little mini submarines for undersea exploration. And it’s doing private tours of underwater things like, you know, submarines and other wreckage. And it’s gone down to the Titanic. And they’ve…I guess they’ve been doing this annually the last couple of years, although it sounds like the last two years were both research missions. And then this year was the first year, from what I’m reading, that they were doing an actual tourist expedition. So, five super rich people who paid a quarter million dollars a piece, popped into this tiny little submarine to go down and explore the Titanic and the submarine didn’t survive the water pressure. Ergo, neither did the unfortunate rich people on their underwater sea exploration.
Inmn
Yeah,
Brooke
I don’t know if any of them were specifically terrible human beings. But you know, rich people in general, if you can afford to pay a quarter million dollars to go underwater, I don’t feel superduper bad about it.
Inmn
Yeah, I think from from what I read, it was like, it was like three literal billionaires, the owner of the company, and then a titanic expert, who, I don’t know what that person’s deal was. So, you know, I might feel a little something for the Titanic expert who was possibly not a billionaire. But also, I don’t know, I don’t know what that person’s life is.
Brooke
Yeah, but the billionaires Hey, you shouldn’t be hanging with billionaires anyway. And, it is pretty ironic that the founder of the company was one of them. And yeah, while they’ve done, you know, for people who don’t know this, explorations have dived to the Titanic, and pictures you’ve ever seen in videos and stuff has never been from like, people actually being that up close to the wreckage because it’s so deep underwater. It’s from sending–I don’t know what they call them–a drone that’s underwater. So, a remotely manned, piloted underwater craft that goes down and like, explores that wreckage.
Inmn
Yeah. And there’s something…like, the pressure down there, it’s like 6000 pounds per square inch or something. So like when that thing depressurized it was crushed within a few milliseconds?
Brooke
Yeah, I have it here if you want. About one millisecond. 1 thousandth of a second is how fast it would collapse. And the human brain can’t respond to stimulus–the fastest the human brain can respond to stimulus is like 25 milliseconds. So, significantly later than when it actually happened. Like. your brain couldn’t register that it happens before you died. And also, this is interesting, human bodies incinerate and are turned into ash and dust instantly upon this implosion.
Inmn
That’s crazy.
Brooke
Isn’t that wild? So, you wouldn’t even know that had happened. Like, less than a blink and you’re gone.
Inmn
Yeah, yeah. There is a there is an image circulating–which is probably like, you know, after hearing that, like, it’s probably a photoshopped image–but there was an image floating around where people thought they could see the Xbox controller that controlled the sub on the bottom of the ocean. Which I think is probably not true because everything was destroyed. But….
Brooke
Yeah, it’s kind of funny, though. For a frame of reference, you mentioned that it’s 5000 pounds of pressure. It’s…that’s like 400 times the amount of air pressure that we feel just standing around at sea level, I should say. So, it’s the equivalent of the weight of the Eiffel Tower on you.
Inmn
Wow.
Brooke
Yeah. Or, I guess on the submarine. I shouldn’t say on the person. But, that’s the equivalent of the Eiffel Tower sitting on top of that little mini submarine.
Inmn
Yeah. And on the note of the ocean gate, do you know who the…you know, this is a Wikipedia joke, so you know, maybe there’s other people, but…Do you know who the last person who was killed by a maritime invention that they created was prior to this?
Brooke
Maybe a Nazi submarine creator? I don’t know. I’m guessing. Way randomly guessing.
Inmn
Thomas Andrews. who designed the Titanic.
Brooke
[Brooke laughing] The Titanic being like, “You shouldn’t fucking come down here. Bad things happened.” Cursed a bit of water.
Inmn
Yeah. Cursed water.
Brooke
So, mini submarines created by eccentric rich people who ignore standard safety protocols and the warnings from experts probably don’t hop into one of those Let’s move on. What else is happening in the ocean, Inmn?
Inmn
So, I’m sure everyone has heard about this. But there have been an increasing string of orca attacks, specifically in the Straits of Gibraltar, which is kind of off the coast of Spain. And the…So it’s a big hype in the media right now, I think because of some specific things, like that they’ve sunk at least three boats at this point.
Brooke
Do orcas get big enough to sink boats?
Inmn
Yes.
Brooke
Wow. I’m bad with the size of things in the ocean. I think of them as being like dolphin size, but no, they’re not. They’re whale size, right?
Inmn
Yeah, they weighed like 11 tonnes or something.
Brooke
Oh lord those are big. Okay. I feel really ignorant for having confessed that to everyone. Just go ahead and laugh. It’s okay.
Inmn
Yeah, they’re big. They’re big and powerful. And they’re incredibly smart as well. And there’s this one boat captain who’s reported getting attacked by orcas twice at this point. And both times, his ship’s rudder has been disabled. And that’s what the orca are doing, is they’re–in some cases they’re sinking boats–and in other cases, they’re disabling the rudders by ramming into them and breaking the mechanism.
Brooke
I don’t know why I love that, but I kind of do.
Inmn
Yeah, it’s very interesting. And, they’re supposedly teaching each other how to do it. There’s adults teaching calves how to do it. And then like the calves mimicking the ramming of the rudders.
Brooke
I love this. I don’t know why I love this so much.
Inmn
Yeah, yeah, it’s pretty good. And so, it’s coming to prominence because of the sinking of the ships and because of the antagonism of this global boat race that goes through the Straits of Gibraltar and ships getting attacked during the race. But, can you guess how many orca attacks, or like encounters that resulted in some kind of worrisome interaction, with an orca that there have been since 2020?
Brooke
Since 2020?
Inmn
Yeah.
Brooke
Okay, I’m gonna guess that there’s a couple hundred a year in normal times. And, I think the time frame you’re giving me implies that it’s worse than usual. So, 1000.
Inmn
Okay, I mean, you know, you’re good at extrapolating disasters…[Laughing]
Brooke
Because that still seems extreme. What is it close?
Inmn
There have been over 500 recorded worrisome encounters or attacks on boats between 2020 and now. But, orcas have been attacking people and boats since the early 1900s, at least in terms of like what is recorded. There was a study done interviewing a lot of Inupiaq people in Alaska about orca interactions. And so like, you know, there are Indigenous stories of orca interactions dating back much further. And, what a lot of folks from those interviews had to say was that orcas are like, these, you know, wise and mystical creatures, but also that they hold grudges, might revenge themselves upon anyone who has harmed a whale in the past.
Brooke
Fuck yeah.
Inmn
Yeah. Which makes sense for some of the….Like, some of the orca attacks are being talked about, in the media specifically, they’re like, “Yeah, it might be due to past trauma.” Specifically, for this one whale named White Gladis who’s supposedly the one who’s teaching all of these orcas.
Brooke
Angry old lady orca. I love it.
Inmn
Yeah. But there’s some kind of funny things being said about it. Like people are like, “Oh, it’s from trauma.” Some say it’s revenge. Some cited it as a fad. And there are some people who are kind of minimizing it saying, like, “Oh, this is just a fad. Like, they’re not revenging themselves upon people there. It’s just a fad that they pick up and they’ll drop it soon,” citing examples like, in the Pacific Northwest, where for a while there was this pod of orcas that would swim around with dissembled seals on their heads.
Brooke
Wow. Alright.
Inmn
Yeah. And what’s amusing about this to me is that people…I think people are just coming up with wild reasons for why animals do things. And it’s like, I feel like it’s almost how the news talks about like youth culture and youth uprisings. Like, there’s some similar language being thrown around,
Brooke
Oh, my gosh.
Inmn
But one of the biggest underlying factors of the orca attacks in the Straits of Gibraltar could be linked to the fact that they were recently declared a critically endangered species or sub population. There’s like 40 of them left in the Straits of Gibraltar.
Brooke
Shit, that is not a lot.
Inmn
I know. And so it’s funny that people have this tendency to say like, “Oh, it’s just a fad, or it’s from past trauma.” And it’s like…they’re a critically endangered sub population that is like, “No, fuck the chips. Like, it’s messing with us.” And, it is. Because, a lot of increased ship traffic leads to a lot of complications for them for hunting tuna. And, their fishing and hunting grounds are severely being messed up by boats, boat noise, and by changes in tuna migrations, which is exacerbated by warming waters. So, I think it’s pretty clear they’re revenging themselves upon humans for this
Brooke
Yeah, for sure. And, when you’re talking about how few of them there are and then you put that in perspective how many attacks there have been like…Obviously, you know, there are orcas in other places, not just the Straits of Gibraltar, but if there’s only 40 there–and I don’t know how many of the 500 or so boat attacks are…but let’s say a couple 100 of the boat attacks are in that area where there’s only 40 orcas, you know? That means every orca has gone out and done like five boat attacks. [Both laughing] It’s just like, once or twice a year, they’re like, “Fuck these boats. I’m doing it.”
Inmn
Yeah, yeah.
Brooke
And I’m here for it. Go orcas!
Inmn
Go Orcas.
Brooke
You know what else what happens when we fuck with Mother Nature?
Inmn
What also happens when we fuck with mother nature, Brooke?
Brooke
Weather. Weather weirdness and stuff going bad. For instance–you’ve got a better one than me–but this is a little one that I’ll pitch as a warm up and then you can share your much better story. There have been storms in the Midwest and the East Coast this last week that have grounded thousands or even tens of thousands of flights. They’ve been delayed and canceled. So, there’s however many passengers that equals–maybe it’s thousands of planes and tens of thousands of passengers was the number, actually. They’re, you know, stranded vacationing on the east coast, what have you, and can’t get back to their homes. And, they haven’t even started rescheduling flights yet. And I compared this earlier to like Climate migration. And it’s obviously not quite the same thing. It’s like a very temporary sort of situation in which a whole bunch of extra people are stuck in a place because of the climate preventing their ability to travel. Isn’t that fun?
Inmn
No?
Brooke
No, certainly not. Yeah. I mean, it’s just like not the normal time of year for there being epic storms like this that are holding up planes and causing cancellations and stuff.
Inmn
Yeah, yeah. Is some of that related to smoke from the wildfires in Canada?
Brooke
Um, you know, I didn’t see any notes about it being caused by smoke. I wouldn’t be surprised if there was some of that going on too. But, it was talking really specifically about major storms, rain storms, wind storms in the Midwest and east, which is like…When we hear about it in the winter and there’s flights canceled, we’re like, okay, yeah, winter snow, and ice means flights get canceled. But, when you hear about it in summer, it’s very strange to have that going on right now.
Inmn
Yeah, yeah.
Brooke
Is there are other strange weather going on now?
Inmn
There’s some other strange weather going on right now. So, in the southeast United States, South America, and Mexico right now there’s this pretty intense heatwave going on. In Mexico alone, since March, there have been over 112 people who have died from extreme heat related complications in Mexico.
Brooke
Jeez.
Inmn
It’s pretty brutal. There’s large sporting events being canceled from athletes just like dropping out from heat illness. In the southeast of the US it is particularly bad with heat indexes of upwards of 120 degrees in New Orleans and Texas right now. And, a lot of these are like record heats for the areas. And notably in Texas, in Big Bend over the month, a 14 year old hiker in Big Bend died from heat related illness complications. And, his stepdad also died from heat related illness from crashing…which resulted in him crashing his car and dying while trying to get help for his stepson.
Brooke
Jeez.
Inmn
Yeah, it’s awful. It’s kind of brutal. And, there’s kind of like critical fire conditions in New Mexico because of this. Like, I know someone who’s like getting deployed to a fire pretty imminently in New Mexico. And, in contrast to this there’s also wild flooding happening. Yeah, there’s kind of been like an early little hurricane season in the Caribbean. And, in June there were catastrophic floods in Haiti, across the rest of the Caribbean, and in South America with catastrophic flooding in Brazil, Ecuador and Chile.
Brooke
So like, just south of the areas that are having the really bad heat waves, basically?
Inmn
Yeah. There’s also this extreme flooding happening. And, some of this can be explained by a another pretty large weather shift, which is that we are officially in an El Nino weather pattern as of June
Brooke
An El Nino is the wet one, right? It’s way too much rain. And La Nina is something else?
Inmn
Yeah, kind of. I spent a long time trying to understand these weather patterns and they’re rather complicated. So, essentially what is going on is that there’s this large amount of warm water that accumulates around Australia. And at some point, there’s this big weather shift due to these like feedback loops changing. And, all of that warm water starts to move eastward. So, okay, during a La Nina event, Australia and tropical Asia experience a lot of flooding and storms and stuff. And then during an El Nino event, all of that warm water starts to shift eastward, which results in much higher surface water temperatures across the Atlantic. Which, can do a lot of it brings. It brings rain as well to the Atlantic. But, it also brings a huge amount of heat. So like during an El Nino event, there is projected to be like large increases in global temperatures and specifically in the surface water. And so typically in a La Nina event, we experience in the Atlantic a lot more hurricanes. So during an El Nino event, there’s actually like a decrease in the amount of intensified hurricanes because of the trade winds that are associated with an El Nino event. They kind of like cut off the head of the hurricane before it can develop. But, due to an unprecedented heat event occurring, the heat is actually suppressing the winds and so a lot of weather scientists are unsure what’s going to happen for this El Nino event because the winds that normally prevent large hurricanes might not do that anymore. But, there will be a huge increase in warm water and in the amount of water in the Atlantic so other catastrophic things could happen.
Brooke
Oh, good. Just what we need more catastrophic things.
Inmn
Yeah, and this is….I feel like I’m going to get @’ed for for some of this reporting. Go watch a YouTube video about El Nino…. [Brooke interrupts]
Brooke
You’re not a climatologist full time.
Inmn
Yeah, not a climatologist. I had a really hard time deciphering a lot of this information. But yeah, that’s what I got about the weather.
Brooke
I think it was great. And I appreciate that. Alright, one quick news topic for you if I may?
Inmn
Yeah, yeah. What else have you got in this list of horrifying things?
Brooke
Well, the United States Postal Service, USPS, is raising the price of stamps again. That’s effective July 9th. So, if you happen to be listening to this before July 9th and you’re someone who does a lot of mailings, run out and buy some Forever stamps because they will be only be 63 cents and you can use them for first class postage forever. Where as, starting July 9th, they’re going to be 66 cents. They’re gonna go up three whole cents. They’re also raising the price for postcards and for international mail.
Inmn
Cool. I mean, you know, whatever. But…
Brooke
I have one more funny news story, but I can’t remember if you had other stuff to share, too?
Inmn
I have some more stuff. I have some other headlines. But, you know, do your headlines.
Brooke
Oh, no, throw out one of your headlines. I want to your headlines. I just did a headline. We take turns here at Strangers. It’s very important.
Inmn
All of my headlines are about pretty bad things happening for trans folks.
Brooke
Oh God, no.
Inmn
No, it’s not a good month or a year for us.
Brooke
Or century. Life time.
Inmn
In Vancouver, BC, a husband and a wife interrupted a track and field meet literally in the middle of the shot-put event as this kid was walking up to do her turn. And this dad like literally stormed onto the field, accusing this person–who is a cis girl–ended up berating and accusing her of being trans, and how she should not be able allowed to compete, and demanded that the parents produce a birth certificate on the spot to prove that this like nine year old, this girl was, in fact, a cis girl.
Brooke
Don’t harass children. I mean, the whole thing is kind of bananas, but what grown ass adult in their right mind thinks it’s okay to walk up to like, you know–I was picturing like a high schooler, which is still not okay, but then you said a nine year old and I’m like, “What the actual fuck? Like, what’s wrong with your brain?” I shouldn’t say it that way. Why would you think it’s okay to berate a nine year old child? A stranger that you don’t know? That’s just bananas. That’s bananas.
Inmn
Yeah. All in the name of protecting children. [said with dry sarcasm]
Brooke
Yes, as a mother, I’m imagining if that had been my child in that situation, I would have not done well. I become kind of a mama bear with my kid. And like some stranger comes up and starts shouting at my kid, it’s not gonna go well for them. And I just don’t understand how anybody thinks that’s okay.
Inmn
Yeah, and the both of them also verbally berated both of this kid’s moms as being, you know, groomers and genital mutilators?
Brooke
Gross. Yeah, child’s not even trans. Not that would be okay if they were, but it’s just that extra layer of ignorance.
Inmn
Yeah, it does point to this larger thing, though, of like, you know–obviously, all of this heightened violence towards trans people is obviously more dangerous for trans people than it is for anyone else–But, I think that we’re going to see–and this is corroborated by some more headlines that I have–that a lot of this violence is also going to be directed at other queer people. It’s going to be directed at trans guys. And, a lot of it’s going to be directed at cis women. Like, basically anyone who doesn’t fit gender norms.
Brooke
Wonderful.
Inmn
Whether that’s how they dress or how their hair is cut or otherwise. And, that was part of the provoking incident with this nine year old was that she had a pixie cut. So, she had short hair.
Brooke
Oh, no. I had a shaved head at that age. Like 8, 9, 10. Like, shaved. Like that’s just a pixie cut, you know, little tiny baby hairs. That’s how I like to wear it. And it’s weird to think about how if I were nine years old today, how I might be treated. I mean, everybody thought I was weird for having a boys haircut then but like, nobody was going to come up and yell at me about, I don’t know, my gender expression or anything like that. They’re just like, “You’re weird.” And that was all.
Inmn
Yeah. Interesting. Do you have any other headlines?
Brooke
I’ve got one more fun story from Oregon for you. Do you want it now? Or do you want it after your evil headlines?
Inmn
Maybe if it’s fun, maybe it’s like a nice thing later?
Brooke
Okay, yeah, that’s good. Suffering for a little bit. And then maybe I can take us out with some lols.
Inmn
Another notable thing that happened…this was like trending on Tik Tok a lot this past month was a like…a masc, a slightly masc presenting cis lesbian woman was actually arrested for using the bathroom designated for women.
Brooke
Oh, of course.
Inmn
Yeah.
Brooke
God forbid.
Inmn
Yeah. Which involves this dude cop like going into this bathroom and trying to shake this person down for ID, you know? To like, prove that she was in fact a cis woman.
Brooke
Oh, the whole bathroom thing.
Inmn
Ben Shapiro. I’m sure folks knew who Ben Shapiro is.
Brooke
A little bit.
Inmn
Yep. So, Ben Shapiro and the Daily Wire is filming an anti-trans movie in Nashville right now.
Brooke
I was really hoping you were gonna say in a bathroom. Sorry.
Inmn
I’m sure bathrooms will get brought into this movie.
Brooke
Okay, and where? Nashville?
Inmn
Nashville Tennessee.
Brooke
What’s it called?
Inmn
It’s called the Coach Miracle and it is about a group of cis men who are pretending to be trans women so that they can play basketball in the Olympics.
Brooke
Okay.
Inmn
And I think I’ve heard that Ted Cruz was on location filming with it. And they misled…they had a bunch of misleading casting ads, which tricked a lot of queer actors into signing on to the film.
Brooke
Yeah, I see it. I see it now.
Inmn
Because it’s being billed as this like queer comedy movie about basketball. But, yeah, it’s pretty bad. But okay, so the one thing that I’m wondering is, does them making that movie put them in violation of Tennessee’s drag ban?
Brooke
When the shitty laws come back around to bite the shitty people in the ass? I hope it does.
Inmn
Yeah, well, or
Brooke
I really hope it violates that law.
Inmn
It definitely wouldn’t…like no one…None of them are going to be prosecuted for that. But, in a good bit of news, a federal judge rejected the Tennessee drag show ban as being unconstitutional.
Brooke
Yeah, it is. It’s a First Amendment violation
Inmn
Yeah. So, the Tennessee drag ban is is no more. I mean, it’s still in the books, but it has been deemed unconstitutional by the Supreme Court.
Brooke
Alright. Well, that’s a little something to make me less, just a little bit less worried about the world.
Inmn
Yeah. But also the Human Rights Campaign, which I feel like I’m having like a brain fog around. I feel like the Human Rights Campaign came under heavy critique for being pretty transphobic in years past. But I can’t remember a lot of things. So. But, you know, regardless, Human Rights Campaign, declared in June, what, you know, trans people have been saying for a very long time, which is that they declared a national state of emergency for trans people.
Brooke
Holy shit.
Inmn
Which, you know, I don’t really understand what that means. And it’s like, you know, queer and trans people have been saying the same thing for a very long time. So like, I don’t really know what kind of legitimacy they’re lending to it. But…
Brooke
Yeah, but they’re like a well known entity. So them, I think, saying that like really is going to draw some important attention to what’s going on that obviously, you and I are paying well attention to, but I don’t know how much any of the rest of society and you know, your normal Democrats or vanilla leftist folks are really paying any attention to all of this that’s going on.
Inmn
Yeah, yeah, that’s true. But regardless of what’s up with the Human Rights Campaign… And my foggy memory…Maybe they’re fine? I don’t know. They did put out a report recently that is this interactive document that keeps up on what laws are being introduced, what bills have been signed into law, what states there are sports bans and bathroom bans, and things like that. Pretty much all of the information to stay up to date on what’s going on in your area or your surrounding area can be found in this interactive report that they put out.
Brooke
So, okay. Well, if you’ve had problems in the past, it sounds like they are catching up and making progress and starting to do some good things now. So we should always applaud when that starts to happen.
Inmn
Yeah.
Brooke
Or we can be disappointed. But it’s, you know, it’s good that they’re getting there now. I feel like.
Inmn
Yeah. What’s your good headline? Yeah. What’s your funny news?
Brooke
Okay, soon New Jersey is going to be the only state in the United States where you’re not allowed to pump your own gas because Oregon’s legislature just passed a law saying that’s going to end our very, very silly law that says you cannot pump your own gas. So, the governor still has to sign in that law–which there’s no reason to think she’s not going to–and then congratulations to us. When we get to a gas station, we can get out of our cars and do it ourselves. And it’s hard to emphasize how ridiculous this is if you haven’t, like, lived here in Oregon and then traveled to other places where you can pump your own gas, you know? I’ve lived in this state my whole life, but I traveled to Washington frequently. And once I crossed that state border, I pump my own gas and it’s not a big deal. But, in Oregon, I mean, you don’t get out of your car, right? You roll down your window and someone comes to you and takes your card and pumps your gas. And there have been a couple of times like during severe heat waves and part of COVID, in which they allowed self-service. And it was very confusing for people. You could see them when they got to the gas station that they were sitting there and like looking around and waiting. And then they realized there was a sign and then they were like, “Oh, pump my own gas,” and they get out and they look at this machine like it’s asking them to do calculus or something. Oh, it’s gonna be so confusing and upsetting for people and I’m looking forward to it.
Inmn
Cool?
Brooke
It’s just so silly that we can’t. I mean, it’s a law that came on the books like 70 years ago or something like that because the government was worried about, you know, people handling flammable materials and whether or not they could be responsible and safe. And, Oregon still has that law active on the books.
Inmn
Wow.
Brooke
Yeah. So this means nothing to, you know, probably 80% of our listeners, but the 20% of you who are in Oregon with me or who have lived here for a set of time, you know you’re laughing.
Inmn
To just to frame this episode with, you know, fascists killing or harming or trying to fight other fascists. So, people might have heard, but there was an attempted coup in Russia from this group called the Wagner Group, which is a private military company of some 50,000 troops.
Brooke
Damn,
Inmn
Yeah, yeah. And it’s a private military company, they’re literal mercenaries. It is a company that is operated by a single person who was…It’s hard for me to understand what, you know, fascists quips with other fascists are, but they were dissatisfied with the military leadership for the, you know, the invasion of Ukraine. And they were upset that they claimed that their troops were getting shelled by the larger Russian military. And so they staged a coup. They attempted to go to Moscow to specifically target this general who is in charge of the invasion of Ukraine. And that lasted about a day and there was this shady sounding deal that was brokered between Putin and Prigozhin, who’s the head of the Wagner group, by the Belarusian president, I think. And the details of the deal have not been…no one knows what the details of the deal are. But, the Wagner group went from being accused of treason and like considered criminals by the Russian state to everything’s fine and no one’s getting in trouble.
Brooke
Yeah, sure. Everything’s fine.
Inmn
So yeah, some fascists killed some other fascists.
Brooke
Excellent. No notes.
Brooke
No notes.
Brooke
As we started the episode, so we ended with good news. Thanks for that happy headline. Can I do the the ending thing now with the ending of the thing?
Brooke
Thanks so much for listening to the latest installment of This Month in the Apocalypse. We come to you as members of the Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness publishing collective. We produce a few other podcasts, great zines, publish books. And, we just finished very successfully Kickstarting our first tabletop role playing game, Penumbra City.
Inmn
Which, as of…If you’re listening on Friday, you still have until 7am on Saturday, July 1st to back this Kickstarter.
Brooke
So why would you want to?
Inmn
So this wonderful role playing game that me, and Margaret, and Robin, and Casandra have been working on for a really long time is…We Kicstarted it. It was a huge success. Thank you, everyone. So, if you back the Kickstarter now, in addition to whatever rewards you select–and there’s, you know, there’s rewards from digital PDFs, to a beautiful hardcover print edition of the game–you get a reduced price because it’s going to be cheaper on the Kickstarter than it will be when we sell it later.
Brooke
That’s like a 20% discount. That’s awesome. Yeah.
Inmn
And you also get some Kickstarter exclusive swag, a sticker that won’t exist after this, and access to an art print by Robin Savage, which will also not be available after the Kickstarter. You also get, if you back it now at any level, you get two additional books, which is a novella by Margaret Killjoy, and a campaign module that I’ll be writing. And those are because we unlocked most of our stretch goals. You’ll also get digital–and these are digital editions and like discount on print editions later–but you’ll also get a digital edition of a full color map that Robin and Casandra are making. And so, you know, go check out the Kickstarter. Kickstarter, Penumbra City. It’s on there. And yeah, I’m disappointed we didn’t get to…[interrupted]
Brooke
[Finishing] The pizza party or the naked live streamed hot tub party.
Inmn
It was never naked. It was never going to be…[interrupted]
Brooke
I was gonna be naked. I don’t know what you guys were gonna do. But there’s still time though. Get us to that 100k mark and be naked in a hot tub for everyone and you will be happy about it. I promise. Yeah, there’s a new book coming out too, that we are crazy excited about? At least I am because I got to do that editing work on it and it is phenomenal. I think I’m gonna buy like five copies, at least, from us when it comes out because I want to give it to so many people.
Inmn
Yeah, it is an incredible book. It’s coming out. It’s actually, if you go to our website anytime after listening to this, it’ll be available for preorder. And that is To the Ghosts Who Are Still Living by Ami Weintraub. And it is a collection of essays written by Ami. In this collection of remarkable essays, Ami guides us on a journey to meet the ghosts of his Jewish ancestors, the people whose struggles and stories sometimes whisper and sometimes scream to be shared. Ami examines challenging questions of heartbreak, memory, restitution, and self-discovery. It is an absolutely beautiful and heartbreaking book. And, if you want to hear more about the book, what also came out today is an interview with Ami on my other podcast, Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness. There’s a really incredible interview that he does talking about the process of creating the book and a sample chapter read by the wonderful Bea Flowers. So, go check out the book and the other podcast to hear more about it.
Brooke
Nice. All that great stuff is available on our website, Tangledwilderness.org. And we are also on some social media platforms and you can connect with us there. We are able to do all of these rad things because of the support of our listeners, especially because of our Patreon supporters who really provide the base monthly financials that we need in order to do our production work. So, we’re incredibly grateful to our patrons. If you’re interested in supporting the work, you can check out our Patreon at patreon.com/strangersinatangledwilderness and our lovely Patreon supporters who provide at least $20 a month get a very special shout out at the end of every podcast. We thank you Hoss the dog, Michaiah, Chris, Sam, Kirk, Eleanor, Jenipher, Staro, Cat J., Chelsea, Dana, David, Nicole, Mikki, Paige, SJ, Shawn, Hunter, theo, Boise Mutual Aid, Milica, paparouna, Aly, Jans, Paige, Janice & O’dell, Oxalice, Funder, Anonymous, BenBen, Princess Miranda, and Trixter. Thank you.
This week on Live Like the World is Dying, Sean teaches Margaret about brewing alcohol. They talk about fermentation in general and then walk though how to make beer and cider.
Margaret: Hello, and welcome to Live Like the World is Dying, your podcast for what feels like the end times. This week we’re talking about fermentation. We’re talking about little things that eat things and then poop out alcohol. I actually don’t really know because I’m the one who’s going to be asking these questions and I record these introductions before I actually do the interview. So, I’m going to be learning more about fermentation and we’re gonna be talking about alcohol, but we’re also gonna be talking about all kinds of other stuff too. And I think you’ll get a lot out of it. And first, we’re a proud member of the Channel Zero Network of anarchists podcasts and here’s a jingle from another show on the network. La la la, la la la la [Margaret making musical melody sounds]
Margaret: Okay, we’re back. And so if you could introduce yourself with your name, your pronouns, and then I guess like a little bit about how you got into fermentation?
Sean: So my name is Sean. Pronouns are he/him. Well, I actually started with, with cider and mead because I had a harder time finding commercially available cider and mead that wasn’t just kind of like a novelty product or obscenely expensive, you know, imported from like Basque country or whatever. So that’s, that was kind of where I got my, my kickoff on fermentation. I worked in commercial fermentation doing sour beer production as well as like conventional clean, you know, canned beer, and then actually worked in sales and distribution with beer for a while.
Margaret:Okay, so this is really exciting because I’ve always kind of wanted to get into this. Well, I’ve kind of wanted to get into everything, which is the whole reason I started this podcast, so I could ask people about how to do things. But fermentation…so you can format things and it makes them different? What is fermentation?
Sean: So fermentation basically is either yeast or bacteria breaking down almost always some form of sugar or carbohydrate. The main thing that is being produced by that is co2. But a nice little side effect that is often produced is alcohol, right, or lactic acid is often produced especially in the presence of bacteria, specifically in the presence of lactic acid producing bacteria. We call them you know, LAB is the abbreviation that’s used. So, fermentation is happening generally-when people are referring to it–they’re referring to yeast fermentation. So the most common yeast, Saccharomyces cerevisiae, right, beer yeast. It’s the same. It’s called beer yeast. But that’s the same yeast that’s used to ferment wine. It’s used to ferment like a sour mash, if you’re, you know, making whiskey in a legal distillation situation as opposed to you know, the other distillation situation. It is illegal to distill alcohol for home use in the US. So, yeah, you have to be very careful you don’t do that. On Accident.
Margaret:Yeah, we won’t cover that for a while.
Sean: Yeah, right.
Margaret: Okay, wait, is this the same yeast as like sourdough and all of that?
Sean: It’s very, very close. So sourdough is–especially if you make like a if you’d like a sourdough starter capture right from the air… I have not done this. It’s something I’ve wanted to do. I’ve captured wild yeast for brewing from the air but never for baking. But they are a similar blend of airborne yeast, so you’ll have wild yeast. You’ll have wild Saccharomyces cerevisiae as well as wild other yeasts, Brettanomyces. Yeast strains are very common in air. And then you’ll also have lactic acid bacteria in the air. So these are those rod shaped bacteria that are active in the absence of oxygen. They’re anaerobic bacteria. So, they will continue to acidify things, even when there is no oxygen present to like kind of fuel or catalyze that reaction in a way that regular beer yeast, or even bread yeast, baking yeast, right, won’t necessarily be able to do.
Margaret: I’m really not used to the idea of thinking about bacteria as a positive thing.
Sean: Right. No. So they are extremely a positive thing, Lactic acid bacteria, because they drop the pH as well. And lower pH means you don’t have to worry about like botulism, for example. You know, so that’s definitely a benefit. Most spoilage…So one number I’m going to be saying probably a few times is 4.2. 4.2 is like the pH level, below which you have a greater degree of protection because of the acidity, right.
Margaret: Okay. Cause botulism doesn’t like hanging out in there?
Sean: Botulism is…I’m not 100% sure if it’s the pH, the alcohol, or both. But botulism does not like low pH, nor does it like high ABV. So these are, these are both good ways of protecting yourself from that.
Margaret: So it’s that kind of…so fermentation probably comes originally, basically…Well, probably by accident. But originally probably comes from people just basically desperately trying to figure out how to make sure food doesn’t go bad. And this is and fermentation is like, one of the many ways that humans have developed to keep food from going bad? Is that a?
Sean: My theory is that’s why fermentation stuck around. I think it showed up eventually because human… ancient, you know, human beings, proto humans even, you know, proto hominids realized they could get fucked up with it.
Margaret:Yeah. That’s fair.
Sean: I think that’s the key point. Like human nature hasn’t changed that much. That will always be the driving influence on novelty, I think.
Margaret: So, what are some of the things–I’m going to ask you about some of the specifics about how to do this a little bit–but what are some of the things that you can ferment? I know, you can make sauerkraut and you can make pickles? Nope, that’s not fermentation.
Sean: No, lacto fermented pickles, absolutely. That’s frementation.
Margaret: Oh, yeah. No, I totally knew that. That’s definitely why I said it.
Sean: Not like quick pickling with vinegar in the fridge. That’s not an active fermentation process. And I do that too, like quick pickled red onions are like…those go well on everything. But no, like actual, like long term pickling. Hot sauces are a big one. You know, I did a batch of…I grew a bunch of jalapeno peppers. And then I went to like a restaurant supply type grocery store and they had like three or four pound bags of jalapenos for like, you know, they were starting to go off, right, I got them for like, under $1. So I fermented about 40 pounds of jalapenos in a five gallon bucket. And you just make a make of salt brine. Right. Like you can you can look up the levels. I think I did a 3.5% or 4%. saline brine in there.
Margaret: I’ll ask you the more specifics about how to do it in a bit.
Sean: But yeah, so peppers you can do. You can do any kind of…anything that has an naturally occurring sugar usually can be fermented and emits….And when you have high levels of naturally occurring sugar, like the classic example is grapes, you usually are, you know, suspending that sugar and solution, water. Right. And you’re making a beverage. Like that’s the most classic example. That’s, you know, wine, that’s beer, that’s, you know, fruit wines. You know, there’s a lot of rural cultures throughout the world. There’s, you know, non-grape wines, right, it’s very common mead is another one, right, and probably the oldest. You know, we talked about the, you know, anthropological aspects of fermentation earlier. And, yeah, that’s almost certainly we’ve, you know, a lot of evidence suggests mead,
Margaret: Okay. So, when you ferment stuff, how long? What kind of shelf life are you able to get on something like hot sauce or sauerkraut or pickles and things like that? The like food stuff.
Sean: Yeah. So you’ve definitely there are two dates at play here, which is the this is going to, you know, this still tastes really good and this is still a safe source of macronutrients and, you know, and things like that. I’ve had no decline in flavor with fermented hot sauce. And I usually package the fermented hot sauce in beer bottles with like a beer cap over the top or in a, like, sometimes mason jars as well. But in that packaging, I’ve not really seen any kind of degradation over like a two year time period, as far as flavor is concerned. It’s probably foodsafe not indefinitely but probably at least 10 years. But it is going to depend on your process. It’s going to depend on how much oxygen is introduced at packaging It’s going to depend on the amount of salt that you have, you know, because salt is usually part of, you know, fermented food preservation and salt is a preservative. So, you know, there’s going to be a lot of little factors that are going to affect that aspect of that.
Margaret: Okay, but if you if you do it right, you can probably make bottles of stuff and leave them in your basement for like 10 years if you need to?
Sean: Yeah, absolutely.
Margaret: Fuck yeah.
Sean: And that applies to especially lactic acid bacteria fermented alcohol. You know, whether that’s like a French or Basque style cider or a sour beer. Those things we’re talking, you know, probably a 20 year lifespan.
Margaret: Oh, interesting. Okay, as compared to so that’s the bacterially fermented?
Sean: So the food is bacterially fermented as well.
Margaret: But I mean, as compared to regular beer, right?
Sean:Yeah. Yeah.
Margaret
How long does regular beer last?
Sean
Very high alcohol beer can last just as long because alcohol is a preservative just like salt, you know, the effects that some of these bacteria create. Bacteria and wild yeast like Brettanomyces is oxygen scavenging, right. So when you when it referments, if you re-…it’s called bottle conditioning, right, it’s where you add a small amount of fermentable sugar to a bottle and then cap it and then it referments in the bottle, you get a tiny layer a yeast at the bottom and it carbonates in the bottle. It’s not done as often professionally because it produces pretty inconsistent results. But it is going to increase the lifespan of your beverage exponentially because as part of that like reproductive cycle, oxygen is scavenged and where there’s less oxygen there’s less spoilage.
Margaret: So it’s like putting the little oxygen absorber in with your like Mylar bag food only it’s…
Sean: Except it actually works. Yeah. [Laughing] It’s far more effective because it literally is pulling every, almost every last, you know, unit of oxygen out of there and using it to fuel, you know, its own cellular reproduction. So it’s not just being like absorbed and held–as much as it can be absorbed and held inert–it’s like being used.
Margaret: That’s cool. Alright, so let’s say I want to ferment because I kind of do. Let’s start with…I think probably the average listener is probably thinking about how they’re going to make beer or wine or things like that.
Sean: Ciders probably the easiest.
Margaret: Okay, so yeah, I want to make cider. What what do I do? Like what what do I need? How do I get started?
Sean: You are in like actual apple country. If I understand correctly. So you have some options that most people don’t. Where I am like getting getting really quality fresh pressed apple juice, apple cider, unfermented, right, is is a little bit of a challenge. But the easiest way to do it is to just go to a grocery store, you know, any place where you can get like the half gallon or gallon sized jugs of apple juice. You know, get them when they’re on sale, get them in bulk. Use frozen apple juice concentrate if you want. It doesn’t really matter. You are going to put that in a five gallon bucket, HDPE, high density polyethylene, plastic, right. It’s a food-safe bucket. But like in food service, you see, you see these buckets used for pickles, you see them use for frosting at you know bakeries and things like that. If you want to do some dumpster diving, you can find yourself some of these real easy or if you just have a you know, a friend or member of your community that’s, you know, involved or, you know, is working in food service they can probably hook you up with these as well. Worst case scenario, you….
Margaret: I’m looking it up, it’s number two on the bottom of a? Like, plastic usually has a recycling symbol. Is it number two?
Sean: HDPE?
Margaret:Yeah.
Sean: I don’t remember if that’s denoted with a number two, but it’s HDPE plastic.
Margaret: I just looked it up.
Sean:Yeah. And it’ll usually be specified as food grade or, you know, if it was used to hold food in the sense of the, you know, recycling and reusing from, you know, food service and like commercial kitchens and things like that, obviously, you know, you’re taken care of in that respect.
Margaret: I’m trying to look up to see whether like the Lowe’s buckets are HDPE or not.
Sean: There’s two different types. Lowe’s did have food grade ones. But the like, kind of universal blue bucket one, I believe it is HDPE but it is not certified food grade. So there might be contaminants in there. So, you would be maybe rolling the dice on that one a little bit. In a survival type situation or something like that, I think that would be fine. But, if you have other options, you know, maybe err on the side of caution.
Margaret: Okay, that’s good to know. I have a lot of these buckets for a lot of different purposes.
Sean: Me too. Yeah. They get a lot of use in the garden.
Margaret:Yeah, exactly. Now I’m like oh, are they not food safe. Should I not be growing tomatoes in them? And then I’m like, this is probably over thinking it.
Sean: Depending you know, some something that like roots are touching not necessarily that food are touching versus something that you have in acidic and micro biologically active thing churning around that you are then going to drink in large quantities, like you know…
Margaret: Okay. No, okay, fair enough. And this has been an aside Okay, so I’ve gone and gotten some apple juice, or if I’m really lucky I press some apples. And I’ve got a five gallon bucket and I fill the bucket with apple juice I assume?
Sean: So, about four gallons of apple juice. Yeah, you gotta leave yourself some head space because you are going to, you know, have some activity in motion with the yeast. Then you’re going to be pitching in yeast. For apple juice for cider you can use champagne yeast, right? That’s, a very, very common one. It is a like a specialty product that you need to order online or get from like a homebrew store or a brewing supply store, something like that. You can use just regular like baking yeast, like breadmaker’s yeast like Fleischmanns or whatever. It will work. You will get a few like…you’re more likely to develop some off flavors, maybe some sulfur type, aromas. Things like that. And then you also might have a less healthy fermentation. So the fermentation might take longer and your final gravity right, the amount of residual sugar left by the fermentation will be higher and the amount of alcohol produced will be a little bit lower. Okay, so that’s that’s using like bread or baking yeast. If you’re using a champagne yeast, you know, wine yeast, beer yeast even you are going to get a faster and much more complete fermentation. Less likely that contamination, if there is any present, will will take hold. Right?
Margaret: Okay, what about um, like, let’s say the supply chains are all fucked, right and I can’t go get yeast. My two questions is one…okay well three questions. Can I use wild yeast? Second question, when you’ve already made this stuff, can you like reuse pieces of it as the yeast? Like in the same way as you like can with like sourdough or something? And then third question is, can you use a sourdough starter? That one so I’m expecting no.
Sean: The answer to all of those is yes, actually.
Margaret: Oh, interesting.
Sean: And I’ll go through one at a time. So your first, if there are supply chain issues, you don’t have, or you just in general you don’t have access, or you don’t want to
Margaret: Or you’re in a jail cell and making it in the toilet or whatever.
Sean: Yeah, right. that’s gonna that’s gonna have its own very special considerations. But yeah, you can absolutely use wild capture yeast. So the…what I would do with with the equipment that I have, I would get a cake pan and I would put…I would fill it maybe between a quarter inch and a half an inch high full of fermentable liquid, in this case apple juice. I put it outside, ideally on a spring or a fall day when there’s no danger of a hard frost, right, either before or after, depending on which shoulder season you’re in. But fairly close to that date is when you’re going to get the best results. You’re going to want to have some kind of a mesh over the top, maybe like a window screen or door screen, you know, screen door type mesh.
Margaret: Keep bugs out?
Sean: Yep, exactly. Keep bugs out. You want the microscopic bugs not the ones that we can see flying around in there, you know? So leave that out overnight on a cool night. If you have fruit trees, especially vines, any grape vines, anything like that, right under there is ideal. If you don’t, just anywhere where there is some, you know, greenery growing. In the wild and you kind of have–not in the wild but you know, outside–in a non sterile, you know, non-contained environment, you’re gonna have less luck trying to do this inside or, you know, in like a warehouse building or something like that. Yeah, this is actually, once you have that, you know, you’ve had it left overnight, decant it into maybe a mason jar or something like that with an airlock. I use like an Erlenmeyer flask just because I have them for other fermentation stuff. And you can with an Erlenmeyer flask, you can drop a magnetic bar in there, put it on a stir plate, and you know, knock the whole process out, you know, 10 times as fast. Obviously not necessary. But, it’s a fun little shortcut if you want to, you know, drop $40 or $50 on a stir plate.
Margaret: Is that just like a basically like, a magnet? Inside the flask that moves because of a magnet on the plate?
Sean: Yep, that’s it. Exactly.
Margaret: That’s Brilliant.
Sean: Yeah, so you have like a little bar magnet. It’s like coated in like a food safe plastic, right, so it’s not gonna scratch anything up. And then you just drop that in, you turn on the plate, it usually has a like potentiometer, like little knob that you can control the speed on. Sometimes if you get the speed up too far, it will throw the magnet and then you’ve got to recenter it and get it all there. But that’s great for, you know, doing your own yeast and bacteria captures. It speeds that up.
Margaret: So it’s speeding it up because you need to stir it. To go back to the I’ve just done this without a flask. I’ve put it in a mason jar.
Sean: Yeah, just give it a swirl a couple times a day, give it a couple swirls. It is going to be, you know, working the same way just on a slower timeline.
Margaret: And this is a sealed jar?
Sean: Sealed, but with an airlock because again, anytime you have fermentation you have CO2 production, it you don’t have an air lock, you’ve just made an improvised explosive device sitting on your kitchen counter. So you don’t want that
Margaret: Right. Usually not. Okay. So that’s the little thing that you see sticking out of carboys where it’s a little glass thing with some water in it. The thing goes through where the air bubbles go.
Sean: Yeah, it’s usually plastic. The most common ones are, it’s like an S bend, right? The same kind of thing that you’ve seen, like sink and toilet plumbing to keep the stinky gas away. The function works the same way that gas can pass through in one direction.
Margaret: So basically, you’ve captured some wild yeast and you’ve put it in a mason jar with an airlock and then it it…you’re feeding it…it feeds off of that for a while and that’s how you get your starter? Is that?
Sean: Yeah, so that is your yeast. That is your inoculant, your starter? Yeah, but you do need to do a couple things to confirm that that is–because you know, wild captured isn’t going to work every single time perfectly. It’s why we’ve you know…
Margaret: Why you can go buy champange yeast at a store.
Sean: Yeah, everyone uses that. So what you need to do is you need to confirm that the pH is below 4.2. Okay, all right. So…
Margaret: It’s that magic number.
Sean: Yeah, that’s the big number for…I think that’s what Douglas Adams was talking about, actually, he just probably pulled the decimal point. But no, so you need to make sure it’s below 4.2 ph. You can do this with pH testing strips. Litmus paper. You can just, you know, put a drop of it on there and you know, see what color it is. I would advise against using the full pH range like the 0 to 14 ones just because since it is such a wide range, it can be kind of like “Is that greenish brown or is that brownish green?” like that’s that’s a whole point on the pH scale. The pH scale is logarithmic. So the difference between brownish green and greenish brown is a factor of 10. So like, you know, have a more narrow range. Litmus paper is ideal or a pH meter. They’ve gotten a lot better in the last five or ten years and a lot cheaper, like we’re talking under $20. So those are really…if you’re going to be doing fermentation, I would recommend using both just in case there’s like a, you know, a calibration error or anything like that. It’s just a good way to confirm.
Margaret: Okay. Alright, so you’ve got to now, you know, the pH is under 4.2. What else are we checking?
Sean: Yeah, we’re also going to just use our olfactory sense. So get your nose in there. And if it smells like rotten eggs and sewage like toss that shit out. There are other bacteria at play that we that we don’t want playing in our in our happy little colony here. So that needs to go and instead just, you know, do another capture. You want like fruity aromas, aromas that maybe have some spice or piquancy to them are fine. Like alcohol aromas are really good too, you know, things like that. These are all indicating fermentation production of, you know, of alcohol production of CO2 as well. You want to see that. That’s another really good indicator is that and that’s why I like those S-bend airlocks as opposed to they also make like a three piece one that just kind of percolates through. The S-bend one is really nice because you can see the CO2 coming through, right, you can see it coming through in bubbles. So you have a visual and audible indicator, right? Like you can hear that there are, you know, 10 or 15 bubbles coming through a minute, right. So you know that there is cellular reproduction happening and fermentation happening.
Margaret: This whole thing…I recently recorded an episode about yeast, about sourdough, this is why I keep referencing sourdough. Yeah. And the whole thing is like hard for me to believe is real. Once I start doing it, I’ll believe it but wild capture…Like sure the invisible alcohol makers in the sky are just going to turn it…like of course they are.
Sean: It feels like some like biohacking, like bio-punk speculative fiction. Yeah. Like it totally does.
Margaret:Yeah. But I love…I mean, when I start doing this, I’m gonna go out and buy yeast, right. But I’m much more interested in hobbies that I know that like, I know how I will do without buying chemicals if I have to, you know? Okay, so wild capture and then you said that you can also use…
Sean: You can inoculate with stuff that you’ve already made.
Margaret: Yeah.
Sean: I think your second question, right. So the example I’ll use for this is sour beer, right? I can go out and pick up a bottle of sour beer. I can drink the sour beer and leave just the dregs at bottom. I can swirl that up and I can pitch that into a fermenter and I’ve just inoculated it. That’s it.
Margaret: And so it can’t be pasteurized, right?
Sean: No, no, you don’t want to pasteurize. But again, remember, we were talking about bottle conditioning, right. It’s a bottle conditioned to beer. So, because it has sugar added to the bottle and it’s naturally re fermented in the bottle, you know, built up co2 and nice, pleasant effervescent bubbles in the bottle that means that it is it is fully bioactive. That’s great, too, because that…much higher levels of like vitamin B and things like that, as well as a full culture of yeast and bacteria, which are really good for your gut biome, which is also important. So that’s why I’m a big fan. Pasteurization definitely helps for like safe transportation and breweries not getting sued when their bottles explode and leave glass in people’s hands and things like that.
Margaret: And so for anyone listening, pasteurization is where you treat it so that everything’s dead inside, right?
Sean: With heat.
Margaret: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Sean: Yeah, exactly. They slowly increase the pressure in increments that you don’t notice until you find that everything is completely dead.
Margaret:Yeah. Okay. Cool. And safe for capitalism.
Sean: And safe for capitalism. Absolutely. Yep. [laughing]
Margaret: Cool. All right. So once we’ve domesticize, the bottles of beer…okay, anyway.
Sean: Yeah, so we want to avoid pasteurization unless absolutely necessary because then the product is less healthy for us and it’s less useful for us in the future. We can’t use it to inoculate other other batches. If I were going to be doing that, I would–I mean, again, going back to that stir plate, I’m talking about an ideal situation–I would add some of that to unfermented beer or cider on the stir plate and let that go because that’s going to get my yeast and bacteria cell count up very, very high. That’s going to ensure the fermentation and acidification start quick and finish strong.
Margaret: Okay. And so is there any like…Is it just a taste difference if you were to like….if I were to go get sour beer and then dump it, you know, do everything you just said, and then dump it in as my starter for some cider, would it just be like weird? Or would it be fine? Or like. Like mixing flavors and mediums or whatever it would be called?
Sean: Oh, so like fermentables. Like a mix of apples and malt for example.
Margaret: Well, so it’s like if I’m using…if the yeast I have access to is I drank a sour beer and I have what’s left, right. But what I have access to to ferment is apple juice. Can I use that to ferment the apple juice?
Sean: Absolutely.
Margaret: And will it taste really wild and different? Or is it just kind of yeast is yeast?
Sean: Not especially. Sour beers is yeast and bacteria. So you have yeast and bacteria at play.
Margaret: Can I make make sour cider?
Sean: Yeah. Because there’s already both malic acid and lactic acid naturally present in apple juice, using lactic acid producing bacteria doesn’t make it seem as sour as like sour beer, right? Because it’s already, there’s already these natural acids at play. In beer, like the pH of non-sour beer, it’s lower than like water, but it’s not low enough that our brains register as sour. So, when you apply those bacteria to a, you know, fermented malt liquid, it’s such a huge gulf between non-sour bees and sour beer. Non-sour cider and sour cider are kind of adjacent more. There is one other little factor though, that ties into what you brought up, which is that yeast and bacteria over time are going to adapt to perform ideally in the fermentable that they have reproduced in. So, if you are reusing like a culture, and I’m going to use the word culture rather than yeast or bacteria because it’s almost always a combination of bacteria and multiple yeast, right? If your culture has optimized itself to reproduce and to, you know, churn through the fermentables in beer, right, you have a lot of longer chain carbohydrates in beer than you do in fruit juice whether that’s apple or grape, right? So they’re going to evolve to deal with those and, you know, when you switch from one to the other, your first fermentation might be a little bit sluggish. Still perfectly viable.
Margaret: So, okay, so to go back to where we’re at in the stage. I really actually like…I think probably most of this episode will be just literally us walking through the steps of making some cider, but we’re gonna learn so much along the way. I’m really excited about it.
Sean: I’m here for it. I’m here for it.
Margaret: Yeah. So okay, so you’ve gotten your apple juice, you’ve gotten your starter yeast. Ideally, you went and got champagne yeast, but maybe it’s the end of the world and you wild captured or maybe you just don’t want to do that. My plan is to start the easy way and then try the hard way later.
Sean: Yep. Good. It’s good to….You’re more likely to keep going if your first endeavor is successful.
Margaret: If I succeed. Yeah, that’s my theory. Okay, now I’ve got my five gallon bucket. I’ve added yeast. I’m closing it and putting a little S…
Sean: Airlock. And it doesn’t…again going back, like if you don’t have access to a homebrew store or the internet or whatever and you can’t get an airlock, like you’re not completely screwed here. All you need is a piece of hose or tubing in a cork or bung or something like that and stick the other end in liquid, you know. Maybe water with a with a few drops of bleach in it, sanitizing solution, vinegar, alcohol, whatever. Right? Because then it’s just you know, the CO2 is blowing out of that tube and just bubbling out of thing. Like an airlock is cleaner, takes up less space, and is more optimized, but yeah, improvisation works fine.
Margaret: Okay. How long am I leaving this? Does it have to be in a cool dark place? Like can I do this on the…
Sean: You don’t want direct sunlight. Alright, so you don’t want direct sunlight and you don’t want light from you know, you don’t want
Margaret: Grow lights, or UV, or whatever.
Sean: Yeah, grow light or UV or anything like that. If you just got like, you know, ambient room light hitting hitting it, especially if it’s in a bucket, you’re probably okay. Beer is more of a concern because beer has hops, and hops are photosensitive, and your beer will taste like Heineken at a summer picnic, you’ll get that like kind of skunky thing that you get in green glass bottles.
Margaret: Yeah. Which I weirdly, I have positive associations with just from…
Sean: A lot of people do. A lot of people do. It’s like…What you like isn’t isn’t wrong. Like, it is what it is. It’s an unfavorable characteristic to some people, but, you know, there’s a lot of traditional German beers that are described as having a sulfur character. And it’s like, I don’t like that though, but it’s correct.
Margaret: I drink a lot of Grolsch. And like, yeah, yeah, I drank a lot of green-bottled Grolsch when I lived in the Netherlands. And it was not…Yep. I’m not trying to relive my cheap beer phase. But like, Grolsch was a good middle of the road, cheap beer, you know.
Sean: I like the bottles because they’re almost infinitely reusable. You’ve got to replace those little plastic… Grolsch bottles are the ones that have that swing top with a little cage that clicks down. So those are…I still have a few of them that I use that I have been reusing for almost a decade now.
Margaret: That’s amazing. Okay, now so we’ve got the bucket, you’re keeping it out of the sun because you don’t want Heineken and especially with hops.
Margaret: Oh, I would assume gravity is about alcohol.
Sean: It’s less of an issue with with cider. But you’re going to, depending on how finicky you want to be, you can test the original gravity, right? Original gravity is the original measurement of the liquid’s specific gravity, basically how much sugar is in solution?
Sean: No, gravity is sugar in solution.
Margaret: So that’s how you find out your relative…Go ahead, please explain it.
Sean: Yeah, you look at how much sugar you started with and how much sugar you ended up with and subtract the difference. Yeah, because yeah, yeah, no, it’s…there’s a couple ways of measuring original gravity.
Margaret: Yeah, how do you do that?
Sean: The easiest, cheapest, and most like durable over like a long term survival situation is going to be the use of a hydrometer. So that is like a little glass. It almost looks like an old school mercury thermometer with a bunch of weights on one end and like a glass bubble. And that floats in solution. You can float it in like a little like a tall cylinder so you don’t waste very much alcohol. You can also float it directly in the bucket. Right? And it’s got little lines. It’ll tell you like 1.050 Like, that’s like the standard standard gravity for most beer and cider. Right? It’s around, you know, 1.050 and that when it’s fermented fully…
Margaret: Is it measuring the buoyancy of the water?
Sean: So that is how a hydrometer works. And then you’ll measure it again. If you’re doing it in a bucket, you don’t need a cylinder, you just need to sanitize that hydrometer and then stick it in, measure the original gravity, the gravity reading before you add yeast, and then after–in the case of cider, I would say, you know, three or four weeks I would start checking it again. The other really nice thing about a hydrometer is you can hold off on packaging until you get consistent readings, right? So if you check your…you know, you’ve let it ferment for three weeks. You check your gravity on Monday and then you write it down, you know: 1.015. Then you check it on Wednesday: 1.014. Okay, well, maybe check it again on Friday: 1.013. No, it’s still going down. Like we need to, we need to let this continue to ferment.
Margaret: Okay, so you’re basically letting it eat as much sugar as it can.
Sean: Yeah, yeah, it’ll…it’s got its own limit. It’s got its own limit. And once there are no more digestible, you know, saccharides then you’re safe to package. If you package while the yeast is still actively fermenting, you’ve got two problems. One of them is the….
Margaret: Exploding bottles.
Sean: You know, exploding bottles, as mentioned earlier. The other is that, you know, our cultures are generally pretty considerate in that they clean up after themselves, right? They metabolize the most easily available sugars first and then there are some compounds leftover. A lot of them have unpleasant, you know, tastes or aromas, maybe like a really bitter, pithy, green apple thing. Sulfur is very common, right. But these compounds, the yeast is going to turn to when it runs…and bacteria are going to turn to when they run out of very, you know, junk food, basically. Very easily digestible monosaccharides.
Margaret: Is there something called young beer where it hasn’t eaten at all? Am I completely wrong? I just have this in my head somewhere.
Sean: Like it’s like a historical thing, right? Like in English brewing maybe?
Margaret: I don’t know. Some concept where people intentionally drink beer that still has the sugar or something? [Sounding unsure] I’m probably wrong.
Sean: No, semi-fermented beer is very much a thing. And I know in some brewing traditions, I think there’s some in Africa that use like cassava and things like that where you’re drinking it like 12 hours into the fermentation and it’s like kind of like a communal thing. Like, you know, people, you know, make a big batch and everybody drinks it at once so that you know, you can get it right when it’s super fresh. Tepachi as well, like the fermented pineapple drink in South America, it’s kind of a similar thing. There’s the pineapple and then there’s brown sugar added as well and you want to start drinking it when about half of the sugar is fermented so it’s still really sweet. It’s almost like a semi-alcoholic, like bucha tiki drink sort of thing.
Margaret: Okay. Before we get to packaging, my other question is, is beer just white sugar? Is that the thing that’s added? Like, what is the yeast? What is it? What is the…or is it eating the carbohydrates instead of the sugar?
Sean: The carbohydrates. Beer uses beer uses malted barley. So malting is a process by which you take you take your grains of barley, you get it slightly damp and you just keep turning it over. And the kernels will like begin to germinate. But before they like crack open and you get like a little shoot or something like that, the process of germination, basically you get a lot of these very difficult to digest carbohydrates converted into simple carbohydrates so that the emerging plant has a rapid source of fuel. Kind of similar to an egg in the survival strategy, sort of. Yeah, right. Once it once it’s malted, right, once that has has taken place, they kiln it, right. So, they hit it with heat. And that kills the sprouting grain. So, it’s not like the malt is going to like mold or, you know, go to seed or, you know, start growing or anything like that. That would be inconvenient. You want this stuff to be able to stay shelf stable for a couple years. So, they treat it with heat, right. And there are there are all kinds of ways of doing it. It is a very involved process. I have never malted my own grains. I’ve thought about doing it, but it’s like very labor intensive and really only economical at pretty large scale.
Margaret: Is this why people didn’t fuck with beer until after they were fucking with cider and meat and all that shit?
Sean: I think so. But, the first beers were actually made from bread not malt. So.
Margaret: Because it’s simple?
Sean: Exactly. Same process, right? It’s easier to make bread than it is to commercially, you know, kiln, you know, bags and bags of barley. And also, you know, bread has its own shelf life. So, if you’re getting towards the end of it….
Margaret: Oh, yeah, then you turn it into booze.
Sean: Exactly. And that’s a thing in Russia too. Kvass, K-V-A-S-S, it’s a it’s made with, like rye, rye bread. And it’s usually around 2% or 3% alcohol, but it’s literally like a thing that you know, people…
Margaret: I love low-alcohol beer.
Sean: Yeah, me too. Oh, man. Like a 2.5% alcohol pale ale. Yeah, just a little bit of hops. That is like my sweet spot.
Margaret: Yeah, absolutely. Because it’s like, oh, I want to drink a beer, but I don’t want to get drunk all the time. Like, you know, it’s like I love a beer on the nice afternoon, but I hate the after afternoon nap that you could get stuck taking if you drink an 8% beear. Like what the fuck.
Sean: Yeah, no, it just like the day’s plans have all of a sudden have changed.
Margaret: Okay, because the reason I asked about the sugar thing is the first time I ever helped someone ferment. They made dandelion wine. And ever since then I’ve been like this is all bullshit because dandelion wine–at least as this person made it–I was like, this is just cane sugar wine. It’s just cane sugar wine with some dandelion flavor. And I was like really upset by this. Because I–and maybe this is bullshit–but it’s like, which of these alcohols are mostly just cane sugar? And which ones can you actually ferment?
Sean: Dandelion wine for sure is because there’s virtually no fermentable sugars in dandelion, but there are a lot of very strong botanical flavors. Like dandelion wine…like the dandelions are more equivalent to like hops in beer than they are to malt in beer.
Margaret: Because the hops are flavor?
Sean: Yeah, they’re adding they’re adding flavor. They’re adding aroma. They’re adding like all of these botanical, you know, aspects to it, but they are not the source of the alcohol. They are not the source of the sugar or anything like that.
Margaret: Okay, can you make dandelion wine with like, with actual…I mean, I know cane sugar does come from a plant, but it’s still…I feel betrayed.
Sean: Yeah. You could make dandelion…you could add dandelions to cider. I haven’t done it but I’ve noticed people doing it. You can use, you know, any kind of like a reconstituted fruit juice and do like a fruit type wine. I think the reason…and I think the one of the more interesting ways of doing the dandelion wine thing is doing a dandelion mead. I’ve had a few of those that are really good.
Margaret: Oh, that sounds nice. That sounds very like cycle of life, you know, like, honey and the flowers.
Sean: It’s a lot of closed loops, right? No, I think the reason that cane sugar became a convention for that is, you know, economic. Like cane sugar was fairly cheap. It was the cheapest, you know, fermentable available to rural people in the Dust Bowl era.
Margaret: That makes sense. Yeah.
Sean: I mean, artificially so, right. Yeah. I think that’s where that came from.
Margaret: Okay, so you mentioned doing all this in a bucket. I still want to get to the putting it in the bottles and stuff. But, is there an advantage…Like, do…Should I get a carboy if I have the money to spend. I’m under the impression that a carboy are a big glass bottle that looks like one of those five gallon jugs you put in your office cooler, only it’s for making alcohol. Is that better?
Sean: That’s pretty much it. I don’t…I don’t like carboys. I’ve used them. I use them for bulk aging of sour beer. I use them for primary fermentation of clean beer and cider. I got rid of all of mine.
Margaret: So you use buckets and stuff?
Sean: I use buckets or I use converted kegs or converted stainless steel kettles if I’m doing a larger batch. It’s just I have a like…for like all the sour beer I have like a 15 and a half gallon stainless steel kettle with a like a bulkhead. Like a like a valve on the bottom. And that allows me to like do pass throughs. So I keep that as like my acidifying chamber. It’s called a Solera. I actually wrote a Kindle digital single about like building and maintaining these. It’s almost exclusively useful for sour beer, you know, bacterially fermented cider or vinegar making. But, if you’re doing any of that kind of thing, especially, you know, small scale, but you know, wanting to provide for a bunch of people like a club or community or anything like that, it’s really the most efficient way to do it.
Margaret: Why don’t you like carboys?
Sean: I don’t like glass. I don’t like glass because there’s just a real risk of injury. When…if you’ve got a seven gallon carboy full of liquid, we’re talking 70 or 80 pounds in a glass bottle.
Margaret: Yeah, okay. I see where you’re going.
Sean: Things can go Bad real quick. When I use them, I had some that fit in milk crates so I could just pick up the milk crates. That helped out a lot. They also make, they call them I think just carboys straps, it’s like a like a four piece harness with handles that you can use. But when I when I’ve seen them break, it’s almost always when someone’s setting them down, right? Anytime you’re setting down something heavy, you know, unless you’re very strong and have a great deal of control, right, that last little bit you can sometimes kind of crack it down. And again, we’re talking 70 or 80 pounds in a glass bottle. And you don’t have to crack it down very hard for the whole bottom to go out and that’s a mess.
Margaret: Yeah. Because then you got blood in your beer. And that’s just…
Sean: Yeah, right. It gets very Klingon on very quickly. And it’s Yeah. But the other aspect I don’t like is they’re completely light permeable too, right cause they’re just clear glass.
Margaret: Yeah. That always seemed weird. You have to keep them in a closet with a towel on them or whatever.
Sean: Yeah, yeah. It’s just I think, again, it was…so homebrewing only became legal in the United States under Jimmy Carter. Right. It had been illegal from prohibition to Jimmy Carter. Yeah.
Margaret: Holy shit. Yeah. Does that mean we’ll eventually get home moonshining? I can’t wait.
Sean: I feel like if we were going to get it, it would have happened already. And I don’t think the trends politically are towards individual deregulation anytime soon for that kind of thing. But you know, it is legal to make you know, like fuel alcohol. Some people make fuel alcohol and then lose it in barrels and things like that.
Margaret: Yeah, it’s not worth it for me. I always figure I shouldn’t do anything that brings the Eye of Sauron anywhere near me. So I’m just not gonna make it.
Sean: Oh totally. And, there have always been people who are going to do it, you know, illegally, but it’s not worth the hassle. It can be like…I know we’ve been talking about fermentation on the side of, you know, consumption and food and beverage and all that, but I do know, people who have stills that use them to produce like fuel alcohol, you know, for backpacking and things like that. And that is valid. And you can, you can, you can produce, you know, fuel alcohol very cheaply, if that’s the thing that you use for, you know, kind of off grid type stuff that can really be a useful a useful toolkit, but kind of outside of what we’re talking about today.
Margaret: Yeah, I’ll have you on…have you or someone else on at some point for that. Yeah. Okay. So you’ve made your alcohol, this was all simpler than I thought. So now you have a bucket full of alcohol, and you don’t want to just pass out straws. What do you do?
Sean: Yeah, passing out straws is an option, but you need to, you know, make sure there are enough people in your in your group to get through five gallons all at once, I guess. No, so you’re the two main options available are bottling and kegging. Right? So bottling is usually, you know, when we’re talking about it as an alternative to kegging, rather than, you know, bottling from a keg, which is a totally different thing. If we’re going to bottle it, we’re probably going to bottle conditioned it. So, we’re going to add a small amount of sugar back. What’s that?
Margaret: But why?
Sean: Bottle condition?
Margaret
Yeah.
Sean
Bottle condition for the oxygen scavenging effects of Brettanomyces yeast.
Margaret
To make it as safe as possible. because we don’t have commercial…
Sean
And shelf stable as possible.
Margaret
Right? Okay. If we had like a big commercial thing then there would be a way of bottling it where no air gets in, but because we’re doing a DIY some air will get in so that’s why we want to bottle condition to clean up our mess?
Sean
Well, even in commercial systems you are going to have oxygen ingress, but it’s going to be significantly less than than what you have at home. Okay. So yeah, that’s going to help with that. So we got longer shelf life both for like a quality flavor product and a, you know, safe to consume product. Both of those are extended. That also adds carbonation, which a lot of people really enjoy, you know, having the nice fizzy bubbles.
Margaret
Oh, it’s flat until this point?
Sean
Yeah, yeah. Totally flat. Because it’s only going to pressurize in a sealed environment. It’s only going to carbonate in a sealed environment.
Margaret
No, that makes sense.
Sean
You got to blow off tube. So all your co2 is, is going away.
Margaret
Does that mean people don’t bottle condition their wine because otherwise you make champagne?
Sean
You wouldn’t want to add sugar to wine that you are bottling unless you are trying to make sparkling wine. But of course it wouldn’t be champagne unless it came from Champagne, France.
Margaret
I’m glad we have the same bullshit cultural reference. 90s…whatever.
Sean
Oh, man. That one is, like…
Margaret
I love Wayne’s World.
Sean
…hilarious too just in their own right.
Margaret
Okay, so, okay, so, back to our cider. We’re bottling it. Oh, but that actually…cider is not normally carbonated. Is DIY Are you kind of stuck? Does bottle conditioning always carbonate it?
Sean
You can, if you want if you want still cider, just don’t add sugar.
Margaret
How are you bottle conditioning then?
Sean
It’s just not bottle conditioning, it’s just bottled. It still has yeast in there, it still has all of that in there because you haven’t pasteurized it, right? So, it still has those those health effects. Shelf life might be a little bit lower. I haven’t seen any significant studies on comparing, you know, home produced still versus, you know, carbonated, you know, via bottle conditioning insider. But I would like to. Like that would be really…that’d be some really useful data if somebody wants to get on that. But you still are probably going to have a good few years of preservation. And again, the higher the alcohol you get the longer it’s going to be shelf stable, right? You have fortified your cider with say brown sugar, right? That’s a very common one that people will do. You add brown sugar and maybe some cinnamon or vanilla, right, especially for kind of like a winter drink. You can very easily make a cider that’s 11% or 12% alcohol and ferment almost as quickly and that is going to stick around just fine. And it tastes really good.
Margaret
You know I want this. I don’t even drink very much. But yeah, this is making me…I’m on…like, I barely drink anymore, but I’m like, I just want to make this stuff.
Sean
It is a lot of fun. And I’ve always really gravitated towards like the kind of like sensory aspects of beverage. Yeah, like, just the, I don’t know, I love a head change. Don’t get me wrong. Yeah. You know, there’s a reason that humans, that we’ve been covergently evolving with alcohol for as many millennia as we have. But there are flavors that only really come out through, like for fermentation, specifically through lactic acid fermentation, and I’m talking flavors in beverages and food. You can get you get these, you know, different compounds from all different aspects of the process that you just can’t get anywhere else.
Margaret
Okay, but we’re, we’re coming up towards an hour and I want to get to the point where my cider is in bottles.
Sean
Where we have drinkable alcohol?
Margaret
How do I get it? How do I get it into the bottles? So am I like siphoning it like you’re stealing alcohol? Like when you’re stealing gas?
Sean
Yeah, you can people do that. But they also make what’s called an auto siphon, which is just like a little racking cane kind of arm that you just put the tubing on. And that like, let’s it starts the siphon for you. It automatically starts to siphon for you. So you don’t get your bacterial mouth on tubing.
Margaret
Yeah, that makes sense.
Sean
Yeah, you know, in a survival situation, you know, switch with some vodka and do it and call it good, but in an ideal situation, a sanitized, racking cane is ideal. Even more ideal, I think a lot of people do especially with cider because it doesn’t produce nearly as much yeast sediment, just ferment in a bucket that has a little valve or bulkhead on it.
Margaret
Oh, down at the bottom?
Sean
Yep. All you got to do is take your bucket, sit it up on your counter, you add in you know a little bit of sugar. It’s usually around like four ounces of sugar, you dissolve it in boiling water and then add the sugar solution. Stir it gently. And then you just use that valve to fill the bottles. And then you use a bottle cap or you can either use like a bench capper that like sits on a bench and has like a little lever arm like this. That’s a lot more ergonomic. They also have these they call them wing cappers. There’s two handles and you just kind of set it on top of the cap and then you know, push down. I have definitely broken bottlenecks with the wing cappers before. Yeah, not broken any with a bench capper. So I would definitely recommend a bench capper.
Margaret
Or, drink Grolsch.
Sean
Yeah, drink Grolsch. Yeah. And any kind of you can, you can save those. It’s not just Grolsch bottles, but those are probably the most common ones. They have like a little swing cap cage, a little ceramic cap with a rubber grommet. You have some kind of siliconized grommet. Yeah. And that just sits there and then clicks it in place. And yeah, those sometimes you have to replace the little rubber part after every six or eight uses of the bottle. But yeah, that’s a hell of a lot better than replacing the whole thing. Okay, once you have bottled, though, you are going to need to leave them alone for two or three weeks because the bottle conditioning needs to occur. So, it’s refermentation in the bottle. So in order to get that CO2 built up and those those nice lovely bubbles, you’re gonna have to leave that alone.
Margaret
But if it’s cider, we can drink it right away because cider isn’t conditioned.
Sean
Yeah, cider or wine. I like bottle conditioning cider. I like to carbonated cider. But if you’re, if you’re leaving it still, you know, that’s kind of like the English tradition. I think you generally see more like carbonated cider, though.
Margaret
I’m…yeah, now that I realize I do….Cider does have carbonation. Great. I totally know what I’m saying.
Sean
Some don’t and like a lot of…like, I was relating to like Basque cider. And you know, from like the France and Spain kind of border area you have like this huge range of carbonation. There you have some that are like champagne levels, like over carbonated like, you know, almost burns your nose when you drink it. And you have some that are completely still and then you have some that are, “Oh, yeah, I guess there are bubbles in here. I guess this is technically carbonated.” Yeah, pétillant is the industry term. But so there is like a huge range on that.
Margaret
Okay, so the stuff I need is I need a fermentable, I need yeast. I need a not carboy but a bucket or whatever. I need a water lock…airlock.
Sean
Airlock or a blow off tube. Yeah.
Margaret
Yeah, and I need a way…either a spigot or a auto siphon. And I need bottles, bottle caps and a capper.
Sean
Yep. The other thing that I would say you need is, you need some kind of a sanitizer. If we’re going with convenience, the easiest one is like a brewery specific sanitizer Star San or Quat, things like that. They’re no-rinse sanitizers. So you don’t…They sanitize and they leave a little bit of foam in place. And you don’t need to rinse them. They will be broken down by the process of fermentation and they are soluble in alcohol and they are completely food safe. Yeah. So you generally buy these in like a concentrated form, like a 32oz or 64oz bottle with a little like dispenser, you know, thing at the top, and half an ounce of this concentrate will make…one ounce of the concentrate will make five gallons of sanitizing solution. So if you have one of these around…
Margaret
Jesus, so that’s enough for a long time.
Sean
Yeah, I know, I’ve replaced my at some point, but I can’t remember when the last time it was. Like, you don’t go through it very quickly. It’s definitely worth investing. You can, again in a pinch, you can use, you know, water diluted with bleach and then just rinse it with like water that’s been boiled. Yeah, you can use you can use alcohol, right? You can you can use…
Margaret
If you have that still that we of course won’t have…Once the apocalypse comes and we all make stills.
Sean
Yeah. Right, then in that situation, and obviously, you can use that to spray it down. You can even put, you know, in our in our current, you know, situation, you can you can put pop off vodka in a fucking Dollar Tree spray bottle and yeah, do it that way. You know, like there are options for that purpose. You know, like, you know, industry specific beverage and brewing no-rinse sanitizers are the easiest. And again, like we were talking about.
Margaret
Yeah, if you’re planning it out.
Sean
If your first endeavor, if it goes well, right, and everything works easily, you’re more likely to keep doing that. So, I definitely recommend using those, if possible, but again, certainly not necessary. Once you you’ve got that, the only other bit of material that we talked about, and it is optional, is the hydrometer.
Margaret
Oh, yeah, that’s right. Because then you know when it’s done.
Sean
You can also use a refractometer, which is a different piece of technology I mentioned. I meant to mention this earlier, but I didn’t. A refractometer is…it almost looks like a little Kaleidoscope that you put up to your eye, but it’s got like a like screen and then a piece of plastic that clips on top that lays flat on top of the screen. You put a couple of drops of your liquid on the screen and then put your plastic on there and you look through it. And it shows you on a line what your specific gravity is based on its refractometary index.
Margaret
Is the reason people homebrew is because they want to feel like mad scientists? And they want alcohol.
Sean
A lot of people I’m sure. Yeah.
Margaret
I mean, this is some mad Scientist shit. Now you use the kaleidoscope to find out how much alcohol there is.
Sean
I feel like yeah, you should have some Jacob’s Ladders and Tesla coils behind you as you’re doing it.
Margaret
That’s how you sanitize is you make the ozone with it. Anyway.
Sean
Oh, you just lightening flash the ozone. Yeah, I can’t believe I haven’t heard about this. Yeah, no. The nice thing about the refractometer is we’re talking like half a cc of liquid being used. So it is a really, really efficient way to measure it. It will not measure accurately in the presence of alcohol. There are like equations that can like compensate for this a little bit.
Margaret
Wait, then what good does it do?
Sean
It tells you how much is there originally. So if, like for me, I know to what degree like my house culture of yeast and bacteria ferments. It ferments down to like .002 or even just 1.0. The same lack of sugar in solution as water, basically. Right? So if I know that, I don’t need to measure it at the end if it always winds up at the same place. Right? If I was selling it, I would need to, but if it’s just for personal consumption, and I always know where it’s finishing, I just need to know where it’s starting and I know what the alcohol is.
Margaret
Okay. But then you can’t tell if it’s done except for the fact that you’ve done this enough that you’re like the bubbles have stopped. It’s been a week. I’m used to this. It’s done. Or whatever.
Sean
Yeah, yeah. So, for Starting off, I definitely recommend the hydrometer. It’s just more effective. And if you’re doing all of your fermentation in a bucket anyway, it’s real nice because you can, you can just put it in, you don’t have to pull some out, put it in a sample, pour it, you know, put it in a tall cylinder and then toss that, you know, eight ounces of beverage down the drain or whatever.
Margaret
Yeah. Well, I think that’s it. I think that we’re out of time and we didn’t even get to the food stuff. So, I’m gonna have to have you back on if that’s alright some time.
Sean
Yeah, that’s absolutely fine by me. I’ve enjoyed myself thoroughly.
Margaret
Fuck yeah. Is there anything that you want to plug? Like, for example, you have a book that people can buy about how to do some of this stuff? Maybe if more than one? I don’t know. Like, you wanna? Yeah.
Sean
So “The Self-sufficient Solera” is the name of the book. I just did it is a Kindle single on Amazon. So you can you can get it there. If you don’t, if you don’t want to go through there, my website Seanvansickel.com. And yeah, there’s contact info there too. You know, if anybody has any questions about any of this stuff, I love to share that and all of my writing is collected there. So, I’ve published an article on like, composting spent grains and like, you know, reducing waste from home brewing. I published that with Zymurgy Magazine recently. And, you know, that’s all on there and original fiction and all that good stuff, too.
Margaret
Awesome. All right. Well, thank you so much. And I look forward to talking to you more about this soon.
Sean
Sounds good. Have a good one.
Margaret
Thank you so much for listening. If you enjoyed that episode then go get drunk. I don’t know, maybe don’t go get drunk. If you don’t drink, we will be talking about fermentation that doesn’t have to do with alcohol at some point in the future. And tell people about the show. We’re weekly now. And you can be like, “Holy shit, this shows weekly,” and people be like, “I’ve never heard what you’re talking about.” And you can be like, “I can’t believe you’ve never heard of Live Like the World is Dying, what the fuck is wrong with you?” Or, instead of gatekeeping, you could just tell them that they can find it wherever they listen to podcasts. And if they’re like, “I don’t listen to podcasts,” you can be like, “That’s fair. Everyone gets information in different ways.” I mean, you can be like, “No, you should absolutely listen podcasts. It’s the only reasonable thing to do.” You can also support us by supporting us on Patreon. Our Patreon is patreon.com/strangersinatangledwilderness. Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness is an anarchist media collective that puts out, you’ll be shocked to know this, it puts out podcasts like this one, and Anarcho Geek Power Hour and Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness. And we also put out zines and we put out books, including my most recent book “Escape from Incel Island.” So you should support us if you want. It allows us to pay for transcriptions and audio editing and makes all of this possible. And in particular, I would like to thank top of all–I can’t say Hoss the Dog is the best dog because Rintrah’s the best dog. I’m sorry Hoss the Dog. I know every dog is the best dog to their individual people that they hang out with. But Rintrah is the best dog. But close runner up, just like close runner up on also Anderson, but close runner up is Hoss the Dog. And I’d also like to thank the following people who are presumably humans. Michiahah, Chris, Sam, Kirk, Eleanor, Jenipher, Staro, Cat J., Chelsea, Dana, David, Nicole, Mikki, Paige, SJ, Shawn, Hunter, theo, Boise Mutual Aid, Milica, paparouna, Aly, Paige, Janice, Oxalis, and Jans. Y’all make it possible. As for everyone else, y’all are also great because we’re all going to try and get through this really, really nasty shit together. And we’re doing it. We’re so here. We will continue to be here. That’s the plan. All right. Oh, goodbye.
